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For Question: What's Your Opinion Of Changing the Worship Format at Madison to one thats more
entertaining?


August 29 2001 at 7:36 PM ConcernedMembers
Forum Owner
To: All Members of the Madison Church Of Christ , Past and Present

From: Concerned Members with a Right to Know

Date: 00/00/2001

Subject: You Have a Right To Know What's Happening!

Dear Member and Ex-Members of the Madison Church of Christ,


Do you recognize this scenario?

You’re at church and suddenly realize that someone has changed your church! You ask people you
know, "What's going on", and everyone says, "I don't know". You wonder, what do they mean!
Have we been asleep? "What's going on here?" So, you approach some of your church elders with
the same question. You get a similar answer. Now, your gut feeling is, “something’s not right
here”.



Someone knows what’s going on here, but it's not me!



Sunday School

You ask your children if their Sunday School has changed? Their reply, "Yeah!". You ask, "What
has changed?" They say, "Oh we mostly sing; my teacher said, "Things needed to be made more
entertaining!" You think, "Entertainment?”, since when do families go to church to be
entertained?



A Real Life Nightmare

By now you've figured out this is not a dream, but a real life nightmare. This nightmare is
affecting an untold number of Madison Church of Christ members. A few very concerned members
have contributed to the distribution of this poll. How many more members share these thoughts
and concerns? The answer to that question is “We don't know”. However, we all have a right to
know! You have a right to know, if you wish!



National Worship Format Issues

There are churches in this nation that “export” division by the very nature of their view of
worship. We will not name a particular church that causes us to make this statement. However,
other churches and church leaders have considered the idea of emulating the spectacular growth
of one or more churches that “entertain” their members rather than worship God because it
fills the churches to the brim, as the old phrase goes. Leaders of some of these churches
believe that members of churches who prefer what they would call “the old beliefs” need to be
converted to entertainment, run off or run over to prevent them from restricting growth. There
is a glaring reason why this may be happening across America, if not the world. It is a lot
easier to get people to join an entertainment venue than to get them to commit to follow
Christ and worship God in Holy reverence.

Here are some facts that we know:

1. There are good and godly people leaving the Madison Church of Christ in disgust.

2. The elders are not telling us what's going on.

3. We have a right to know what's going on, as well as anyone else that cares about our
church.

We know that we can worship God at many fine churches in the Nashville area. However, before
we make a decision to move to another church, we have a right to know what's going on ‘behind
the scenes’ at Madison. You have a right to know.

We need to find out who is in the minority. If people who are concerned about the changes
taking place at Madison are in the minority, we may have to move our families to churches that
strengthen our beliefs and follow a different worship format than we see emerging at Madison
Church of Christ at this time. It's not our desire to be an element of divisiveness. It is our
desire to get to the truth and show how widespread (or not) this movement is at Madison Church
of Christ. Wouldn’t you like to know? We have a right to know, you have a right to know, every
church in Nashville has a right to know how this could happen to their church. Can 350 people
overthrow 3,500? This poll will answer that question! Wouldn’t you like to know the answer?
Oddly enough, you have part of the answer and we can all know the whole answer by
participating in this poll.

We understand that the elders are now in "secret meetings" to make a decision on how the
Madison Church is going to be run. Here's the problem.

We don’t think God's work needs to be carried out in secret.

No one consulted the church membership before the current changes were made in the Madison
Church of Christ worship format. The results have been devastating. Now the Elders have
announced they are meeting in secret again to decide something that’s never been asked of its
members. The Creators of change are obviously in charge and their work is best carried out in
secret. Here is your chance to tell the Elders what they never asked you.




 Ken Ball


Worship Format Change September 6 2001, 9:49 AM

First little things change. It is like the frog in the water that is being heated. It is hard
to notice the harmful effect until it is too late. Worship teams and equipment will get
fancier and fancier.
They will actually claim to "usher you into the presence of God". Music is vital to change
efforts.
Mood control is important to them. It will not be long before the instrument will creep in to
"save" the youth from departing. It happened in Seattle. I objected. Was accused of being
devisive. Had to leave because of conscience.

  ==================================

Jeremy


This is ridiculous September 8 2001, 2:48 PM

I know that my sending this reply will quite possibly open up Pandora's Box, but I feel it
needs to be done.

I am tired of seeing Madison blasted as it has been since the fusion of the third service into
the second service. In no way has this service been sinful. I still don't understand where
people get the idea that we run up and down the aisles, screaming, hooting and hollering.

How dare we call this "our" church. So what if you paid for or helped pay for the facilities
at Madison? God doesn't care what the building looks like. Last time I checked, there was a
man who chose to die for my sins and for your sins 2000 years ago, and it is His church that
we attend. Sure, we go to a building to worship, but the building is not the church. We are
the members of one Body, the Body of Christ. The game that is being played now seems to be one
that is called "Who Wants to Have it Their Way?"

People of all ages attend Madison, but it almost seems like they're all the same age: 2. Those
of you with children remember the terrible two's, a period of time in which chronic nagging
and whining took place until the child got their way; if not, temper tantrums would follow, at
which time the child would be disciplined. I hate to see the whining and bickering going on at
Madison. I have been attending for 18 years and have never seen things come to this.

About the poll:
Why are the choices given in a traditionalist's point of view? Why am I supposed to choose one
box next to a question presented from a biased opinion? Why couldn't the second box choice
state "I wish that the Madison Church of Christ would change to a more contemporary format"?

If you ask me, the "historically established format" is one that pleases men rather than God.
How about taking another poll? Why not ask the whole congregation (past and present, to be
fair) what the words to mean. Imagine the discord sown when Fannie J. Crosby first introduced
some of her songs. Imagine the response first received when John Newton first sang "Amazing
Grace". Now imagine the response we received when we first sang "Shout to the Lord". I imagine
the feeling was the same for both eras in time: mixed. Some liked it, some hated it.

I know of some people who truly feel God in first service, and that's awesome. I get the same
answer from people in second service. So what's the big deal? Church is not about hymns, a
prayer, communion, a 30 minute service, contribution, hymn, and prayer (don't get them out of
order, that's irreverent). Church is about praising God, our Father, who even had the heart to
put us here in the first place.

Ask yourself these questions:
Why would God choose to put such a lowly creature on the earth and give it my name? Because He
loved me so much. Why did God send Jesus to die for me and take away my sins, so that when I
believe and am baptized, I no longer have to worry about them? Because He loved me so much. If
you ask me, that's what God is all about.

As to singing -- what's the big deal? If we want to go back to the first century church and be
like them, we'd better break out the mantras. Paul and Barnabas didn't sing "Tarry With Me";
they sang in chants. In today's world, we would view chants as satanic. You want to go back to
the first century church? Then let's have church at somebody's house or even outside, but
without lights, air conditioning, cars, sound system, or any of the conveniences we have
today. If our goal is to be like the first century church, it should be in attitude.

I hate seeing the church members fight amongst each other, and I hope there's a way that the
differences can be reconciled.

Jeremy
http://www.geocities.com/jermscentral
========================================


ConcernedMembers


Forum Owner
Its not really about a format change, or even instruments in the Church! September 9 2001,
9:44 AM

Jeremy;

You sound young, and I can tell that you spent a great deal of time preparing your message.

It took great strength for you and a lots of guts. If you don't believe me look around, how
many messages do you see by others?

It would be easy for me to say that with age comes wisdom. However, when I think how old I am,
and I'm only now beginning to understand whats' happening at the church, I would have to say
my wisdom has come slowly. We never stop learning is so true.

If you read through some of the links posted, it doesn't take long to understand that it's
really not about a format issue or even instruments in the Church.

What it's really about is waking up and finding a guest that you have invited into you
house(in this case the Lords House) that doesn't want to worship like you do.

No one is going to be against you for wanting to worship God in any manner you wish.

The problem here is whether the guest should leave and find their own house, or whether the
people that invited them should have to move into another house.

There is really no way to compromise that unless you use "Concensus Processing" to drop your
truths.

We love you Jeremy!!



  ==============================
Guest

What is the historical format? September 18 2001, 12:01 PM

You say that you are offended by guests that have been invited into your house that don't want
to worship like you do. I may be one of these guests, although I thought that I was a member.
Nobody told me of the historically established format when I joined. What specifically is
this?

  ===========================
gaileen3

WE DO NOT JOIN THE CHURCH February 6 2002, 2:52 PM

To begin with, one does NOT JOIN the Church of Christ. The Bible teaches us, that we are ADDED
to the church.
So if you JOINED then you are at the WRONG PLACE!
I have gone to Madison since 1956, raised my family and seen lots of changes all for the
better (EXCEPT NOW). Madison used to have zone meetings, take food to those who lost loved
loves (Bro. Ira used to say, "Now ladies, get your food ready and take it to so and so's
house. Take plenty of food to feed them after the funeral.") I used to feel like Madison was
my home and loved to go EVERY TIME THE DOORS WERE OPENED. Now, I don't have that love for
Madison anymore. I still go because my mom wants to go and (she is not into this NEW KIND OF
WORSHIP), cause one day I won't have her to go with me. My love for the church hasn't changed.
I just don't feel like I have a church family in my life anymore. I go to the early service
and I did try the late service, but, it was such a distraction for me, I couldn't keep my mind
from wondering.
I am praying that Madison will get back to the way it used to be.

  ======================================
deweyne


But, It not Your House, It's God's October 22 2001, 6:27 PM

I am not a member of you congregation, and I have no background knowledge outside of that
which is laid-out in this site. But I have been a part of the churches of Christ for 20 years
and I have seen many changes in that time. The thing that is troubling me as I am reading this
is that many of us (respondents) have been more concerned preserving the traditions we've
contrived than about serving the Lord in loving people(the 2nd part of The Great
Commandment)"...and so fulfilling the law of Christ."

It is my humble prayer that we might go 'back to the Bible' in the principle of "the strong
bearing the infirmity of the weak." And, while we all try to ascertain who the "strong" one
is, may we all take inventory of the "fruit of the Spirit" be displayed on our "tree of life."
Remember, "We are all the children of GOD by Faith in Christ Jesus." Its HIS Family and HIS
House. There are no guest, and only other house would be the Enemies -Satans. So do I hear
anyone saying that "Praise and Worship" (or "mood setting" as one writer put it) is Satanic.

Lovingly submitted.

  ===========================
Ewell Pritchett


Amen October 24 2001, 6:35 AM

Amen. Jeremy needs to objectively study God's word and understand the requirement to worship
according to God's pattern not in the way we wish to. A grieved Christian.

  ===========================
Patricia Cole


LURED BY: T elevised B lasphemers N etwork January 21 2002, 3:21 PM

The seducing spirit of Satan and his Whore, Christendom and lying signs and wonders has lured
away the churches of Christ. We are witnessing the Great Falling Away from truth.
Denominations have long since fallen away.

Do we think we are immune to such seduction? We are! only in the TRUTH of the Apostles
Doctrine! Outside there are dogs and every abominable work. We are witnessing a Great
Departure from truth in COC and it is a sad sad day.

I am in Chicago and have parted company with those who have been seduced by doctrines of
devils. Having been a Charimatic, (speaking in tongues, etc.)for 5 years, I can "smell" error
when it arises. Having, all gross error! and grand deception) been a student of the Word of
God for at least 20 years.

I beseech the churches of Christ members, elders, deacons to CEASE and desist from drinking
the poison from TBN! The hearts of many have gone after the heathen round about us! We are
admonished in I Jn not to let those who teach error into our houses!!!! Yet! we open wide the
door via the TV and satelite. Woe Woe Woe! unto those who drink deeply of the poison of
serpents. They have polluted the true gospel with Wormwood. Soon, the true believers will have
to come out of her...Babylon Whore Harlot...Come out of her MY PEOPLE! that ye receive NOT of
her plagues.
Touch not the unclean thing.

In Exile for Christ's sake
Patricia

  ===========================
Deborah Hooper


An Objective Opinion March 15 2002, 1:28 PM

Please forgive me for intruding on a private dispute, but I was a fourth generation member of
the Church of Christ. I grew up at White's Ferry Rd Church of Christ in W. Monroe, LA. The
Church of Christ laid down for me the basic principles by which I seek to know God. These
principles can best be summarized by the statement, "Where the Bible speaks we speak, and
where the Bible is silent, we are silent." The second clause of that statement is as important
as the first. God decides what is reverant worship, not our tradition. The book of Colossians
tells us to worship God with Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. The Psalms tell us to "Shout
unto God with a voice of triumph" and "Clap your hands all ye people", and "praise him with
the high sounding cymbal" and even "Praise him in the dance." If you really want to be first
century Christians, worship like they did! The Book of John tells us plainly that God is a
Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth. The Church of Christ
needs to take a fresh look at what the Bible teaches about the Holy Ghost and this matter
would be resolved. Thank you for your time.

  ===========================
Gary Smith


Worship August 12 2002, 12:50 PM

You quoted the Psalms regarding the cymbal, the dance, clapping of the hands, etc,.
That was all well and good under the law of Moses. However, the Lord Jesus nailed all that to
the cross when He died on the cross and Christianity was introduced. You can find no example
in the New Testament (the new law) where the first century Church did anything but sing.


  ===========================
Jeff Day


psalms, hymns and spiritual songs August 12 2002, 8:49 PM

Oh yes the Bible does speak on it. What do you think Psalms are? Many were sung as solos, some
with instrument accomp. These were not COMMANDED by the "Old Law" as you call it. They were
songs of love sung by David (a man after God's own heart) to God and he loved to hear them in
their format then. Jesus did not "nail these to the cross". He nailed our ability to save
ourselves to the cross and saved us Himself.

Just because something is in the Old Testament does not mean it is not valid to us today.
Please do not misuse the scripture.

GRACE and Peace

Jeff

  ===========================
Rhonda Beekman


What is God's pattern? August 10 2002, 12:16 AM

Boy, we really don't know how to submit to one another do we? I guess something horrific will
have to happen (like 9/11 again?) to wake us up? If the Madison Church of Christ was in that
building, do you think there would be this kind of attitide? I think not. I think we would be
bending over backwards trying to figure out what our brother needed. Instead, we're more
interested in making sure OUR needs are met. For goodness sake, please don't change how I
worship God! I've been doing it this way for 40 years! By the way, I'm 41 years old and been a
follower of Christ since 1979. I don't really care HOW I worship God, so long as my heart is
right. Now, don't go off and acuse me of not worshipping in truth. What I'm talking about is
whether it's 3 songs or 30 songs--WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? Do we have a verse on this?
Did the Day of Pentecost have a worship "service" like ours? Why are we judging our brother?
Isn't Christ the judge? We are a melting pot of personalities, cultures and talents. If you
sat in a worship service 50 years ago, do you think they would be shocked at our worship
service today? I think so. NO ONE LIKES CHANGE! We are a more and more sophisticated society
and if we are going to worship in the "back woods" and sit on our high-horse, expecting the
world to join us (or the Lord to add them) or be damned.....well, brothers, we're all in for a
surprise. Jesus went where the people were. Paul was all things to all people so he could win
some. We are so full of pride! If we don't humble ourselves, God will do it for us. Let's get
busy doing His work--LET'S PLANT AND WATER AND LET GOD GIVE THE INCREASE! If we're fighting
amongst ourselves (which Satan just dearly loves), we can't be busy doing the Lord's work. How
many souls have you brought to the Lord?

  ===========================
Josh Mays


Trouble understanding? September 11 2001, 1:23 AM

In response to Jeremy's post, I feel He has shown a light on some issues that really need
attention. His post responded to the question at the head of this page, "What is your opinion
of changing the worship format at Madison to one that's more entertaining?" The answer his
post received had the subject, "It's not really about format change or even instruments in the
church." My question, what I can't understand is why you would pose a question in a forum and
in your own post say that the question is invalid? Why ask about the format issue, and
dedicate most of your site to the issue of format and instruments, then turn and say that it's
not about any of that. You say it is like a man who invites a guest into his home and the
guest does not agree with his style of worship. You seem to say there is no compromise so,
"Who leaves?" That seems to be the jest of this site..."Who leaves?" If there is no issue of
worship style or instruments, why dedicate the whole of your site to proving the sinful nature
of clapping, raising hands, instruments, and the like. I have really tried to find a grasp on
the root of the problem here and I am baffled. I see a group of people with sects within
having differing ideas, scratching to get ahead of each other. Each speaking nonstop about
worship issues and all the while saying that is not the problem! I am amazed at our own
ability to confuse ourselves! We can in all sincerity sit and complain and murmer about one
issue and believe ourselves as we tell others that the one issue we rant and rave over is not
the real issue! I say that if it is not the real issue then it should be dropped. If it is not
the real issue then what is? It is apparent that there are many feelings and emotions being
allowed to reign over this church. There have obviously been feelings hurt over and through
this conflict. If the issue is really not the issue then maybe it is the raw wounded spirits
holding on to their pain that is continuing this turmoil. If so there are several options: 1)
forgive 2) go to those who have hurt you and work it out 3) release the feelings that hinder
love and move on 4) give up. No one wants anyone to give up and leave. That is obvious by
everyone's concern about the growing number of members leaving the Madison church. Either we
keep avoiding the problem by denying it or we realize, simply by listening to our own speech
and witnessing our own actions, what that problem is and work through it. What we talk about,
what we focus on most...Therein lies the problem!

I tried to vote on your poll, but found it lacking the answers that I would place my check by.
I will here answer those questions.

Do you have faith in the elder's ability to solve the problem? Answer: I have faith in no mere
man; I have faith in God Almighty and in His ability to solve the problem, be it through
us...or the elders.

What is the percentage of Madison members that want a format change? Answer: I believe that
underneath all the fear of change we would all like to see a reform back to a deep and
fulfilling faith in God. Some like a different style of worship than others; is the question
of numbers stopping us from catering to the needs of our brothers? Does the worship style one
favors speak about his or her levels of faith in or love for our Lord?

Can you say that you have been fully informed by the elders of the true nature of the conflict
at the Madison Church of Christ? Answer: If we can't agree on what we are bickering over, how
could the elders tell us what we are bickering over? Format or not, hurt feelings, whatever
the true nature consists of, if we do not know then how could the elders possibly know??
Secondly, if we do know, then we are at fault for the elders perceived ignorance here, because
we were given the opportunity to convey our message clearly in the conflict resolution
packets, of which I hear only around 330 were turned in! How could they inform us if we had
not first informed them???

Would you be in favor of reducing the number of elders to ten from the current fifteen?
Answer: I feel that God Himself has placed these men in this position of leadership for a
reason. Is there any reason to adjust the eldership other than for one agenda to gain a
majority among those in power? I would answer with a question: What motivates such an idea?

Would you be in favor of a reaffirmation of each elder?
Answer: It seems to me the only reason behind such a plot would be to discard those elders not
becoming to a certain viewpoint and retain those adhering to that view and appoint more to
support that agenda. The thought seems to be that there is a need to crush another brother for
he is trying to ruin our church.

There is an agenda behind all of our actions. If I were to say that I write this with no
agenda I would be speaking lies. I hope it is evident that my agenda is peace. I believe that
we could all simply co-exist as one in the Madison church of Christ if we would all lay down
our agendas that would tear down others and cause them pain. If we were interested in peace,
truly interested in peace, all of us, I believe we would find it. I do not believe we are all
interested in peace. I feel this website is not designed with the intent of peace or in love.
I do not feel that Jesus Christ would sign his name to any of the publications or posts here.
It seems that just as Christ would not claim our words we would not clain them; sadly, we did
write them, and I speak confidently that he would never have penned these words either. We all
need to stop viewing each other as the enemy and realize that we are destroying the precious
name of Jesus. We are soiling the love He has called us to proclaim to all people.

To see this site saddens me to the core, and I believe that God and His hosts are hurt and
dissapointed by this. By contrast, I believe there is someone whose hosts are rejoicing with
him to see the disunity and discord we sow among our brothers without even the nerve to stand
behind our words. I will wear my words, the tongue is a dangerous instrument, I am aware that
my words may not sit well in some of your stomaches; if so please talk to me and let's begin
together the long walk toward peace. I petition you who would write here to please stand
behind your words, take responsibility for them, remember that what you place here will stand
in the eyes of many and may influence them even to their salvation! I do love you all, even as
it is obvious that I do not agree with all of you on all things, I do love you all. Remember
that we will never move towards unity till we lay our weapons down.

I would rather not have to say this, but I question the motives behind this site and this
mailing (poll). Many are now involved who should have never been disturbed or distracted from
their walk with God. Perhaps many will never find God due to being disillusioned by the
arguements set in such an open environment. Please, let's watch our actions and ask the
popular question, "What Would Jesus Do?"

I again ask any of you offended by my words to contact me, I may yet be unaware of the
repercussions of my speech. I cannot make ammends for that which I do not know is torn.

May the God of Peace reign in your hearts and bless you beyond measure.
- Josh Mays
jehovahjireh4us@aol.com

  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


Response to "This is Rediculous" September 28 2001, 4:54 PM

Response to "This is Rediculous"




I do not attend the Madison Church of Christ anymore. I have placed membership at the
Goodlettsville Church of Christ. However I still care very much about what is going on there.
I decided to go to this web site one day and I saw your letter “This is Ridiculous”. I want to
respond to your letter and let you know how I feel about several things in it. This is the way
I see it and I believe, “the way it is”.

You stated in reference to the fusion of the third service into the second service this way:
“In no way has this service been sinful. I still don't understand where people get the idea
that we run up and down the aisles, screaming, hooting and hollering”.
The word “sinful” when thinking of this service does no come to my mind. The words worldly,
humanistic, sensational, materialistic, divisive, disrespectful, feel good, see me, watch the
show, immature and unspiritual do. It is not the idea that someone is running up and down the
aisles. If that is what someone feels they need to do to worship God, that is their decision.
The decision to do such a thing would probably be viewed by most (at least) as very radical,
immature and unspiritual. The worship leadership definitely should not suggest such things and
although this particular practice has not been, many other “physical” exercises have been
introduced.
“Physical” is not “Spiritual”.
“Sensational” is not “Spiritual”.
“Materialism” is not “Spiritual”.
“Human Gestures” are not “Spiritual”
“Entertainment” is not “Spiritual”.

You also made the statement that “we are the members of one body, the body of Christ”. That is
the way it is supposed to be. You are right. The building is not the “Church”. Anyone calling
it “Our Church” is probably speaking out of frustration and they are out of line. Material
arguments should have nothing to do with it. “One” body? Then why are there two very different
services? The answer to “Who wants to have it their way?” is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
This is communicated throughout the Bible especially the New Testament. I have heard many
people at Madison say in the last couple of years that “if you are at Church for any other
reason than bringing souls to Christ, then you are there for the wrong reason”. This statement
is wrong! Seeking the lost and bringing souls to Christ is part of the everyday Christian Life
but not the main reason for Worship Service. We Worship to express our thankfulness and
appreciation to God for blessing us. You referred to it as a game. It is not a game, it is
simply the people who are the very foundation of the Madison Church of Christ speaking out for
what the Bible says and for the values that they have worked very hard to uphold throughout
the years. I think these values are what you refer to as “traditions”. Some traditions do not
have a biblical foundation but are simply learned from “experience” to be the best way to do
something or not to do something. There are also some traditions that really do not matter and
have no biblical reference. The New Testament indicates in many places how to worship.
Worship, as the New Testament suggests, should be more pleasing to God, cause fewer conflicts,
less division and be “Spiritually” uplifting.

I had been attending the Madison Church of Christ for 30 years when I decided to leave and I
have never seen things come to this either. I have never seen such blatant disrespect and
unwillingness to compromise by young Christians for the elder Christians. I also have never
seen such hateful things come out of the mouth of Christians from both sides of this conflict,
but I think the “terrible twos’, that you referred to, was really a rather one sided,
subjective comparison. I do not believe that some of the things that I have heard have been
said, or the way they have been said, by some members of the elder generation have been
productive to their view but I do understand why they are upset. The physical hand waiving,
clapping, kneeling, etc. and the atmosphere of the church service being a “religious show” are
offensive and distracting. These are things that are appropriate for church camp. Through the
years such things have been practiced at church camp by the “youth” but never in a formal
worship service. Again let me stress that how an individual Christian worships God is his/her
business but physical worship exercises and arrogance should never come from the pulpit. The
Church pulpit is not a “soapbox” or a “performance platform”. Anything or anyone that makes
the pulpit appear this way, to anyone (especially the long time members who helped build the
facility, the programs and the loving atmosphere of the church), should be stopped. They
should at least have the love, respect and maturity to refrain even if they do not see
anything wrong.

I really do not understand how you can say that what you call the “historically established
format is one that pleases men rather than God. “Shout to the Lord” is a powerful and
beautiful song. “Amazing Grace” is a powerful and beautiful song. The “traditionalist” point
of view is something that has been learned from the bible, and from experience to be the best
way to conduct formal worship. It has been found to cause less friction and promote a more
“loving” and “SPIRITUAL” atmosphere. Some people may claim that this is boring. It is not, and
it also provides a better environment for meditation and reverence. The worship service
“should be” solemn and reverent. It “should not” be a “Pep Rally” or a “Religion Show”. It
appears to me what you call “contemporary worship” is the one that is being promoted to please
men.
Here is something else you said: “I know of some people who truly feel God in first service,
and that's awesome. I get the same answer from people in second service. So what's the big
deal?”
Is that how the 2nd service makes you “feel”? AWESOME? Who is talking about “pleasing men”
now? Did Jesus say to “Feel God” in Spirit and in Truth? In John 4:24 he says “God is “SPIRIT”
and those who “Worship” him must “Worship” in “SPIRIT” and in “TRUTH””. The human “Spirit” is
not a “Physical” being. Humanly, worldly, physical actions taken on behalf of Worshipping the
Lord are not necessary and are spiritually distracting. I Cor. 2:14 “But the natural man does
not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are “FOOLISHNESS” to him; nor can he
know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.
I was incredibly embarrassed and ashamed when the third service moved into the main
auditorium, especially because Harold Hazelip was preaching the day that it happened. The
choir, the cameras, the subjection to egotism from the pulpit and the insulting statements
coming from the Jumbo Tron video screen were abominable. I never agreed with the idea of the
third service in the first place. Why should some people be given a separate place in the same
church to do things that they were not comfortable doing with the rest of the congregation?

“As to singing” as you put it. There is absolutely no need to have three songbooks. You have a
songbook with 900 songs in it and most of them very good. What songs you sing does no matter
as long as they edify and direct your attention to spiritual things but you all need to have
the same music in respect to organization and respect to visitors. Instead of putting two
“other” songbooks on each pew, you should get a songbook with a mixture of all three and
replace the other two books on each pew with a BIBLE. The Church of Christ is “supposed” to be
modeled after the first century church and As far as chants go, that you referred to as
satanic, the songs in the praise books are far more like Chants than the songs in the other
book. I have heard the songs in the praise books referred to as 7-11 songs, that is, 7 words,
repeat them 11 times. Everyone has songs that they like and dislike. I personally have no
problem with any of the books, but I do believe that you need only one in a worship service. I
also believe that if you are going to use the video screen during worship, it should only have
“Words to Songs” and “Words of the Bible” projected on it. It should not have graphics or
pictures of any kind during service. After service is over and before it starts is the time to
show anything else.

I do not like seeing all the fighting either but I also do not expect faithful Christians to
just sit back and accept what is not right. I think that very many people feel that something
is wrong but just can’t put their finger on what it is. I also think that some people are
inflating some things way out of proportion but the very “Spirit” of worship at the Madison
Church of Christ has been infiltrated and replaced by “human emotional desire” and self-
entered “We are omnipotent” attitudes.



Lawrence N. Bennett - jazzntones@yahoo.com

  ===========================
Jeremy Howard


Response to "This is Rediculous" October 1 2001, 2:07 AM

I thought I would inform you that the idea of putting pictures and graphics behind the words
came from one of the older members of the congregation. I originated these slides when I was
asked to do a special PowerPoint presentation for the Easter service in 1998. Since then, they
have become a mainstay of all songs, new and old.

Oh, and speaking of your idea on songbooks-- if we introduced one songbook that contained a
mixture of all the songs, that would create an even bigger uproar than having 3 separate
books. I've seen it happen at other congregations.

Praise songs are not chants. Besides, if they were, wouldn't that be returning to first
century roots? I haven't read anywhere in the Bible about Paul singing "Night With Ebon
Pinion". Maybe that's located in Opinions 1:13 or I Traditions 5:2. The "traditional" church
of Christ standards are strictly but somewhat loosely related to those of the origins of the
Church of Christ back in the 1800s. I don't recall any denominations back in the Bible; they
were started much later.

And do you want the real reason why I said something about the traditions? I'll be frank and
honest with you -- when I view first service, I see robots who are there merely to go through
the motions and get their once a week churching out of the way. Basically, they're making sure
their "fire insurance" is covered. What do you see at second service? I can already guess the
answer. I imagine you see several "unholy" or "irreverent" acts going on. If you want to say
that people who get on their knees are arrogant, then you'd better call Saul a proud man, or
anyone else who talked to God on their knees. Why do you not accept the contemporary forms of
worship? Is it because you're afraid of change?

This church would be so much better if its members read the Bible for what it is, not
contextual verses they deem appropriate for themselves. That's how the World Trade Center was
attacked-- by Taliban members who interpreted the verses of the Koran in their own way.

  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


Response to Response to Response to"This is Ridiculous" October 4 2001, 7:23 PM

Response to Response to Response to"This is Ridiculous"

Jeremy,
I got the word spelled correctly this time.

I do no know who you are and I had no idea that you had anything to do with putting pictures
and graphics behind the words. It really does not matter who originated the idea, I just do
not believe it necessary and I do not believe there is anything “Spiritual” about it.

The songbooks are only one of the issues causing uproar at Madison. You do not need three. I
simply said a Bible would be a much more logical worship tool than extra songbooks.

I did not say the Praise songs were chants. I simply said that they were more like chants than
any hymns that we sing because “you” made a reference to chants. I think singing chants, as
well as hymns and praise songs, would be great! The problem with chants is they would be very
hard to organize in an easy to understand format for a congregation. As I said before, the
Church of Christ is supposed to be modeled after the first century Church. God wants “singing”
from “your” heart, or soul and spirit, not singing from rehearsed, entertaining individuals
whether it be a whole congregation or not. Singing should be conducted in a form that is “all
inclusive” and easy to follow for the sake of organization of the service.

You are exactly right, I am sure there are people at the first service who are there to get
their churching for the week out of the way. However, I believe there are many more at the
second service who are there for the same reason and they believe as long as they have to be
there, they might as well get a physical charge or boost out of it. I also believe that many
are there to play with all the toys that CPI has to play with. I do not think getting on your
knees is arrogant but I do believe that when such things are suggested from the pulpit for the
congregation to follow, it has an air of a melodramatic put on whether it is or not. As for
lifting up holy hands, the Bible makes reference of this but I believe it to be an
illustration of words more that a literal act being described. If you are going to take it
literally, then it refers to “Men” not women and I have seen many women at Madison lifting up
their holy hands but if they feel that is making them more “Spiritual” then that is their
business. You did not say anything about this but I thought this was a good place to add it
in.

I am glad that you “read the Bible for what it is” and not “contextual verses you deem
appropriate for yourself”. I was very impressed the way you used “Hypothetical” books and
verses to illustrate your point on singing. I sort of resented the comparison to the Taliban
in reference to the verses that I used from “real” books of the Bible. I assume “you
interpret” them differently? Liberally? Contemporarily?

Yes. “I am” afraid of “changing” worship practices when I believe the changes are divisive and
detrimental to the “Unity of the “Spirit” and the Bond of peace” and have nothing to do with
“Spirituality” and everything to do with “Human wants and desires”.

Lawrence N. Bennett
jazzntones@yahoo.com

  ===========================
Stan


Sad Indeed February 3 2002, 1:00 AM

In reading these entries, it's really sad that the devil has divided the Madison church. My
family and I have visited there, both when I was very young, when my parents and I visited
hile in Nashville & since I've been married & had children. Madison and Ira North have always
been a great encouragement to me in my desire to serve as a minister. I'm now 40 years old and
a Minister for a church in Georgia. I thought it was interesting that you mention that
rehearsed, previously practiced songs would not be appropriate for a small group or a whole
congregation. However, I remember quite well when the whole Madison church would "rehearse"
the singing on Sunday nights prior to the taping of the "Amazing Grace Bible Class". Also,
what song leader out there doesn't practice his songs before leading them in the assembly? As
far as the lifting up of hands, it's very scriptural and shouldn't affect anyone else for
someone to do this. As far as getting on one's knees to pray in the assembly, even if the one
leading the prayer encourages it, what about the one who leads prayer and encourages people to
bow their head and close their eyes? This has been done for decades, yet I've never heard
anyone complain about the one leading prayer saying: "would you bow with me?" Would those who
have done that for all these decades be as cooperative if the one leading prayer said: "would
you kneel with me?" Legalism, "straining out gnats and swallowing camels" is killing the
congregations in the town where I grew up in Alabama. I pray to the Father that the Madison
church will again "March for the Master" and quit "crawling".

  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


Reponse to "Sad Indeed" March 20 2002, 1:53 PM

Stan,
You bring up some good points and I hope
you get to read this after so long. Please let
me explain. I am 40 years old also. The Amazing
Grace Bible class was an outreach by the whole
Congregation that was also a Church Service to
be viewed by the World. It was inclusive to
everyone including visitors and was easily
followed by everyone. We used ONE songbook
and sometimes inserts but it was always as
"congregational singing" should be in a church
service. It was not a reheased choir sitting on
the front row holding microphones and a Jumbo
Tron video screen projecting words, graphics and
instructions. This was to project to the world the
Way to Worship and I was very disappointed in the
format change for the Bible Class from a congregational
setting into a small, Studio Group. I went to it
nevertheless because I felt this was one small way that
I could help get the message out to the world. I did not
always agree with how it was produced and projected and
there was a need for people to be seen there because the
numbers dwindled steadily. Then it was done away with all
together and that was a real shame because I know personally
of people that it was reaching. If you look back, I
did not say rehearsed, previously practiced songs I said
"Rehearsed entertaining indiviuals whether it be a con-
gregation or not." Maybe the congregation part of that
statement is a little confusing. I'm just saying that
the song service should be collective, congregational
and exclusive to noone. I do not care if someone stands
on their head if they feel like they are worshipping
God but that is a physical thing not Spiritual. I do
believe that "Physical things" suggested from the pulpit
more often than not look like an attention show. As far
as bowing your head and closing your eyes during prayer,
as opposed to kneeling, that's a courtesy thing. There
is usually not enough room in a Church for everyone to
kneel even if that's what they wanted to do. If you
feel you should kneel, that's fine but that is also
something that can look very showy coming from the
pulpit. I have done much praying for Madison. My
Father was an Elder who has recently resigned. Thank
You in advance for reading this if you do.

  ===========================
John

Sad Indeed....more heartbroken indeed August 12 2002, 4:37 PM

I'm not 40 years old, I'm 53. I used to attend Madison until we had to move in the early 80's.
It breaks my heart into to see this body destroyed because of a lack of understanding,
compassion, and love. I can remember Ira North making comments about the love on that street
corner in Madison. I remember the flack Madison took because of the gym, the kitchen, and the
children's home. You led others because you were willing to think differently about how we
serve God. After reading much of this, I really wonder where is the love that made you so
great? I know God still cares, as do we who remember!!!!

  ===========================
Jeff Day


This is Rediculous August 12 2002, 9:09 PM

What you refer to in the largest part of your response is what you want, not what Jesus wants.
It is your personal opinion.

How can you judge those who raise hands, clap, or kneel in service? Do you know their hearts?
Many of us who like to lift "holy hands" (which is mentioned in the NT, by the way) are tired
of some who like to think they know our hearts when we worship.

I am sure there are some who do it for show, but I am not going to criticise them. Only the
Lord can do that. How dare you say that these things are only appropriate for church camp and
not for "formal worship"...whatever you mean by that.

GRACE and Peace.

Jeff

  ===========================
Alex


I hate such ignorance! October 11 2001, 1:05 AM

It has been stated by one of the "madison liberals"
: "I hate seeing the church members fight amongst each other, and I hope there's a way that
the differences can be reconciled."

That means.. "I'm not going to change so I hope all these bible conservatives will shut up and
let me have my fun." lolhaha

Just read this guy's post. Differences will NOT be reconciled untill such demonic thinking is
diminished from the madison church OF CHRIST!! I only wish I could express the intent and
intensity of why us 'bible only' thinking people don't go for anything above what God has
ordained. ARG This guy needs to attened the corner stone church near opry mills with that
kinda thinking,.. Madison members who still have a Bible-based thinking brain needs to leave
and let those 6 or 7 people have that building to themselves including those 'no-count' elders
who aren't leading the flock.

  ===========================
ewell

Blunt but succinct October 24 2001, 6:59 AM

I am pained for those faithful who have had to leave the apostate Madison, but prayerfully
grateful for their great courage. As to the one "modernist youthful comment" made "What would
Jesus do?" I know what He would do - make a scourge of cords and drive the changers and
innovators out to the back street cafes and change churches where they belong to entertain
themselves unto judgment day, all they while speaking sweetly of love out of one side of their
mouth, and out of the other side of their mouths are criticizing the "historical
traditionalists."
Unfortunately, leaving the near empty building for the entertainers and "visionary" elders,
has the same result as when the instrumentalist innovators of 1850 took over all the
buildings, and the faithful had to start over with nothing. Did GOD appoint these elders for a
reason? Does not Satan appoint elders? or get into their pockets even when GOD did appoint
them?
Hmmmm!

  ===========================
10er


sounds right to me December 2 2001, 9:43 PM

thanks for your perspective....my concern for styles of worship is far from the top of my
list...my preference is acapella...been going to madison for more than 10 years...both my kids
accepted Christ and were baptized there...hallelujah! anybody interested in reaching the lost
with the message of Christ? worship anyway you want...your audience is ONE...or it should
be!!! HE will decide what HE likes...I have a feeling it will depend on your heartfelt
motivation only!!! If you would like to go fishing...for souls...drop me a line

  ===========================
mike brown

response February 4 2002, 11:18 PM

I couldnt have said it better. Amen.

  ===========================
Rhonda Beekman


Preach it! August 9 2002, 11:48 PM

I just wanted to say thank you for your thoughts. We are going some through some similar
problems at our congregation. Some peopple brought up some things going on nationwide and I
decided to surf on the net to see what the fuss was about. I tell you the Lord could not be
happy about this. I pray these people who are modern day Sadducees (sp?) repent of their
hypocritcal, self-righteousness heart and get to the business at hand---SAVING SOULS! How
arrogant of these people who feel they are the "watchdogs"! God does not commission anyone to
go around warning people in the Lord's church. Boy, talk about thinking more highly of
yourself than you ought! I love the points you made. I hope everyone who needs to be convicted
of their evil ways is pricked in his heart and stops this tearing down of our Lord's body.

God speed,

Rhonda Beekman

  ===========================
Hermitage member

Re: Worship Format Change October 18 2002, 5:25 PM

Its starting to happen at the Hermitage Church of
Christ now. The community movement has their foot
in the door. .


  ===========================
Kevin Hamm


ConcernedMembersHillcrest
RE: Hermitage Church of Christ October 18 2002, 11:58 PM

Learn everything you can about the movement and ask your brothers and sisters in Christ if
they've noticed the changes too. It takes perseverance and helps to nip it in the bud.

Jud 1:3 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was
needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the
faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

If we can be of any help, please don't hesitate to contact us by email.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin


  ===========================
Joe McKnight

Get real September 8 2001, 7:38 PM

To whomever:
At least a red flag is being raised as to the going ons at Madison under the present
Eldership. The worship format is the least of the evil doings under this Eldership. What of
the pagan worship service(Astarte)? What of the debt to secular institution? What of taking a
member of the Body of Christ and turning it into a Corporation (501.3.c an creation of the
State)? What of teaching our Children occult practices (Halloween)? What of sending people
with demons to secular trained shrinks? What of only preaching "Milk sermons, and most of them
are soured"? What of an Eldership that require a legal contract(which they broke) with
preachers? What of plays that only the theme is biblically based? What of going against
Scripture (Jeremiah 10)? What of courting politicians and political offices then lying about
the separation of church and state?
Are you starting to see why they are meeting in secret? Are you starting to see why they will
not talk to any one that does not scratch they itching ears (II Tim 4). Do you see why evil is
done in dark rooms and in secret?
The worship format is the least of Madison's problems. As for Heroic Elder. My vote goes to D
Bishop, for resigning, no wait he came back. As for reaffirmation; Don't worry about this to
much as we are living in the End Times, God is going to take care of this, one way or the
other, their chance.


  ===========================
member of madison


respond to "GET REAL September 9 2001, 1:57 PM

AMEN AND AMEN.





YOUR LETTER IS 100% TRUE. BUT THE PROBLEM WITH MADISON CHURCH WE HAVE TO MANY MEMBERS WHO DONT
CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.WE NEEDED MORE BACKBONE TO SPEAK UP. NOW WE ARE HAVING TO MAKE UP OUR
MINDS TO STAY OR JUST LET THEN RUN US OFF. THEY HAVE RAN OFF ALL THE GOOD TEACHERS TEACHERS
AND PREACHERS. MOST OF THE ELDERS SEEM TO HAVE THE RESPONSE WHO CARES...

  ===========================
MEMBER


WORSHIP FORMAT September 9 2001, 7:47 PM

THE "OLD" WORSHIP FORMAT USED AT MADISON FOR MORE THAN 60 YEARS HAS SERVED THIS CHURCH
WELL.THEREFORE, THERE IS NO RATIONAL JUSTIFICATION TO CHANGE IT. SOME SAY THAT THE NEW WAY IS
MORE "SPIRITUAL" WHATEVER THAT MEANS. OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO WORSHIP THE GOD OF HEAVEN, NOT
TO AMUSE OR ENTERTAIN THE YOUNG PEOPLE OR ANY OTHER GROUP. I BELIVE THESE CHANGES FALL WITHIN
THE SCOPE OF THE APOSTLE PAUL'S WARNING TO THE CHURCH AT EPHESUS IN ACTS 20,VERSE 29 AND ff.AS
FAR AS LARRY SULLIVAN IS CONCERNED,WHY WOULD THE ELDERS OF A CONGREGATION CONSULT WITH HIM OR
ANYONE ELSE FROM CALIFORNIA IN MATTERS DEALING WITH THE LORDS CHURCH?WHO APPOINTED HIM AS THE
AUTHORITY IN THESE MATTERS? THE TOTAL BLAME FOR THE CONFUSION AT MADISON CAN RIGHTLY BE PLACED
AT THE FEET OF THE MAJORITY OF THE ELDERSHIP,WHO HAS DONE NOTHING TO CHANGE WHAT IS HAPPENING.


This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2001 11:15 AM



  ===========================
Member

Respond To Get Real: September 10 2001, 1:50 PM

Dear Brother,

If you think his article was 100% right, how can you justify having anything to do with the
Madison church? Don't the Scriptures say, "Come out from among them and be ye seperate, touch
not the unclean thing".? You have it sound like the Madison church is one of the most evil
things at least in the State of Tennessee. Please be careful what you say about other
Christians, if you go to heaven you may have to spend eternity with some of them. Wouldn't you
hate to have to live next door for eternity after having said all those evil things about
them, could you really be happy?
If In deed I thought it was that evil, you could not get me to go near it if you held a gun on
me.



This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2001 11:17 AM



  ===========================
Jon E.


Response to: Respond to get real... February 28 2002, 3:12 PM

NOt saying evil or not but You say if you thought it was that evil that you wouldn't go near
it with a gun to your head. Well your opinion on evil could be very different than someone
elses opinion on evil. Whereas you might go not believing it to be such a bad thing where
others may disagree.

-Jon

  ===========================
Denise


I have not heard? September 9 2001, 4:43 PM

Get real;

I am a former member of the Madison Church of Christ. I have now attended Tusculum Church of
Christ for over 10 years. I have not heard anything about Madison and the claims you make. Is
there really an Elder/Preacher contract? Is there a Corporation? Will there be instrumental
music? I always looked to Madison Church of Christ as a leader. Anyway, I am concerned because
I too am a member of the body of Christ and I think that we should all be concerned for each
other with love. I will keep the Madison Church of Christ in my prayers.

In Christ Jesus,
Denise Money

  ===========================
Member

Get Real: September 10 2001, 5:26 PM

Dear Brother,
Yes, I do consider you a brother. If you have believed in Jesus and been baptized into Him,
then, we are brothers, not because we agree but because we have the same Father.
As a brother, I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through
His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your heart through faith. And I
pray that "you", being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the
saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this
love that surpasses knowledge-- that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of
God.
Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His
power that is at work within us, to Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout
all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Also as a brother in the Lord, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have
received. Be completly "humble and gentle; be patient bearing with others in love. Make every
effort on your part to keep the "unity" of the Spirit through the bond of "peace". There is
'one" body and "one" Spirit-- just as you were called to "one" hope when you were called--
"ONE" Lord, "One" faith, "one" baptism; "ONE" GOD! and Father of us all, who is over "ALL" and
through "ALL" and in "ALL".

Brother, lets quit trying to divide this body. Get on your knees and ask God to help you to
say only good things that will encourage and build up. You do not have to believe or do
anything that is wrong yourself. No one is forcing you to either raise your hands, clap or
sing a song that is wrong. I am not worried about being lost because someone at the church I
attend may raise their hands in praise to God or clap for joy and God forbid that someone
might jump up and shout someday. If I thought that would cause me to be lost, I would go to
the person and ask them to please stop myself. I would not wait for a group of elders to all
agree and ask them to stop. May God help us to know what is important.
Yes, I want my brothers and sisters in Christ to be tolerant and patient with me while God is
still working on me. If they won't be patient with me, please tell me, where can I turn? In
turn, if I won't be patient with them, where can they turn?

Let me just add, personally, I am glad our elders so far do not feel that it is their task to
make laws telling members every little thing they can do and can't do, but they recognize that
we each have a certain freedom in Christ. They don't want to be little Pope's and praise God
they don't. While some are calling them every name in the book, I want to thank God for them.
They have conducted themselves in a manner above reproach during this time. May their number
be increased, not decreased.



This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2001 11:15 AM



  ===========================
Amanda

Slanted, Biased, Ludicrous Poll September 10 2001, 5:21 PM

Slanted, biased, and ludicrous poll.

  ===========================
James A. Buchanan


to be or not to be September 11 2001, 8:26 AM

I go to church to worship the lord not be entertained. if I wanted interment I would go hear a
lot of the gospial groops where I could clap my hands wave my arms jump and and down wave my
arms, hope things would go back to where we were 6 years ago.


  ===========================
Nell Johnson


Worship vs Entertainment September 11 2001, 12:30 PM

Sir you have expressed the sentiment of
the majority of the memembers of the
Madison Church of Christ membership roll
as of Feb 2001- We have begged and pleaded
to our Leaders to restore the New Testment
Church at the location of Madison, Tn.
Our Members have left and sought New Testment
Worship at other locations Our Pleas have
fallen on deft ears- I am asking for the
Prayers of all Christians as we face the
worse challenge that has ever faced this
congregation and will effect the Church of
our Lord worldwide. Billy and Nell Johnson

  ===========================
Josh Mays


I have an extra car, do you need it? How about my T.V.? September 12 2001, 12:27 AM

You say you want the new testament church restored at Madison, But I wonder if we ever had it.
Among many differences is this one really BIG difference: They had all things in common.
Simply put that means if I have more than I need for TODAY, I would share with those who
don't. My bank account would be opened up for my brothers. My savings delivered to the church.
My possessions shared with all. Why do I drive a Lexus, or Cadillac, Land Rover, Infinity,
or, down a level, my new Ford, or Toyota, or Chevy? Isn't that my brother over there driving
his children around in a two decade old clunker that could give up at any time?
Why do I have three, two cars...do I need them? What about the family without a car?

No my friends we are a long way from new testament Christianity. Not only as I have shown in
attitude toward living, but even in our attitude toward worship. My attitude is wrong toward
worship! I am seeking God daily for wisdom and as He promised I know He will give it. Please
understand that at no time was the church perfect or as it should be; nevertheless God
accepted their worship, and Paul, even amongst all their sin and abominations, still called
them holy and praised them for trying.

Bretheren, I am seeking to love and serve and praise our Father in Heaven. I urge you to see
that this is a lifestyle not a Sunday morn thing. Christianity is easy in the building, but
haven't we even failed there? I love you all in the name of Christ. -Josh Mays

  ===========================
Member

To Be Or Not To Be: September 19 2001, 1:57 AM

Brother: I do not know of anyone who goes to worship to be entertained. You say you do not and
that's good, but do you enjoy your worship? One of the reasons we have not made people want to
be Christians is, they have looked at us and concluded we were not even happy as Christians
ourselves. If what you have has not done anything for you to make you happy, then they don't
want it and to be honest, we can't blame them. I do not know every person that attends at
Madison. However, when I look around on Sunday morning I do not see a group of people being
entertained; I see people praising God and acting like they injoy doing it. I pray that when
those who do not know Jesus come into our midst they will see a people who enjoy praising God
and love one another; who enjoy their walk with God and consider it a priveledge to worship
Him.
When I sing with Keith Lancaster, I am not being entertained; I am praising God; I am being
edified and encouraged; I am being drawn closer to my brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes my
heart goes out to anyone who may just think they are being entertained. Perhaps they will keep
coming and learn that worship is not about being entertained. I just hope someone doesn't
"run" them off before they have a chance. I hope each one will come to know the joy (and let
it show) that only comes from pouring your whole heart out in worship unto our God.
I don't raise my hands very much and I don't clap during songs and I don't want anyone telling
me I have to. I am not going to tell a precious soul that does to quit or leave. Can't we
allow each other at least a little freedom? If freedom in Christ cannot be extended in
Churches of Christ, then where will it be extended?
I ask in all sincerity, If we are not the people, then who are the people? If this is not the
time, then when is the time? If we cannot get along with a few "small" differences, then who
can God and the world look to? If the Madison church can't or won't demonstrate the unity of
the Spirit in the bond of peace, then, will God have to look for another church to do it? If
you or I will not cooperate with the elders instead of calling them names, will God have to
raise up others who will?
We have our chance, will we divide and let Satan have the last word, or, will we stick
together through thick and thin (not because we all agree, but because we have the same Father
and Savior) so that the world will know that we are His and will be drawn to Him?
Our cause is greater than anyone or even all of us.

Something tells me God is depending on the Madison church, not defend the traditions of the
past sixty years but to demonstrate we are what we claim to be and I was always taught that we
were not bound by traditions. That we did not make laws where God has not made them. We
claimed that if people would come to us we would not bind anything on them that God had not
commanded.
May God help us to be what we claim to be, a congregation of the Lord's people who love the
Lord our God with all our hearts and our brothers and sisters with a love that will not let
anything seperate us. How many of you will say.. A-Men?
Remember, God, the lost world and Satan are all watching, which will be happy when it's all
over? It's in our hands.


This message has been edited by t on Sep 19, 2001 8:08 AM



  ===========================
Randy Wilson


Untitled September 12 2001, 4:11 PM

I am appalled and ashamed that a member or lest one who professes to be would use this format
to air our family's problems. This is as cowardly as those who have attacked our nation
killing thousands. You do not want the "church" to return to its New Testament roots because
you have proven that all you have is a personal ax to grind. With this mentality you show to
everyone that you are simply Satan's messenger trying to disguise yourself as a sheep. I hope
you will repent and change your ways for bringing reproach upon the Lord's Church before it is
everlastingly too late.

  ===========================
Michael Farris

Randy Wilson, Are you ok? November 9 2001, 9:49 PM

For the main point of this post, Please scroll down to read the last paragraph!!
Mr. Wilson, I have yet to show an attitude, so if now in the wording of my post, a similar one
as yours comes through, it is strictly intentional :) ----- For you to say what you wrote on
this site, (the day right after the 9/11 attacks I might add) (which aided in the wording of
your comment I'm sure) demonstrates that you have been blinded from a few things.

1. The issue that is dividing this congregation to begin with.
2. WHY it is tearing that congregation up.
3. That ONLY those who care would think of ANY means to restore it to where Madison once WAS!
(not is NOW)
4. And are blind as to What it is that MADE Madison great.
5. Why Only the back boned members are LEAVING, (which I don't blame them one Bit.
6. The Mentality and motive of those who show they actually CARE about the well being of every
member in that building and those outside ENOUGH to not want visitors to come in and be taught
a FALSE DOCTRINE!!!!! (by it not being complete and practiced wrong)
6. There's more, but I'll shut up.... After I say these last few words,..

You all ARE (or at least show to be) VERY Liberal members who want to change what works
despite other's (even God's) will. Like a communist! Liberals who would change anything just
to get a higher attendance. (even sacrifice doctrine without realising it!!!!!! If in that are
YOU not also able to be classified as a 'worker of SATAN' YOURSELF??? i.e. one who is view by
Satan an Agent by which he can use to advance his agenda??? Think PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

Liberalism like this reminds me of nadab and abihu (sp?) who wanted to spice up the worship
service by offering 'strange fire' to the Lord, and God killed them on the spot!!! ((but I bet
if they had kept on, it'd have drawn a bigger croud, dont ya think?) We don't want you all to
go to hell for tampering with how God tells us he wants us to worship HIM when we are gathered
together.
Good 'riddens' people, may the Lord be with you.

  ===========================
Bobby M. Johnson

How we can decide this worship format without judging. September 12 2001, 5:58 PM

I'm one of those members that woke up on February 11, 2001 to the real problems in "our"
church, the Church of Christ at Madison . That's Christ before Madison with Christ as the Head
and Madison Christians as the Body. Didn't Jesus teach us about that (read Colossians 1:18, I
Corinthians 12:27, Romans 12:5)? Better yet, it should be "Our" church with "Our" being
capitalized.

There are some of my brothers and sisters who believe I am divisive. As us country folk say,
"That dog won't hunt". You are listening to someone else besides yourself. Please do not judge
me (read I Corinthians 6:4). I have defended Our church, our Elders, our "everything" for 10
years to my own blood brother who is a deacon in a 150 year old grass roots Church of Christ
in my old home community in Kentucky. I judge NO ONE! I personally am seeking reasons, and
motives of outside interests from 285 B.C.E. to 2001 C.E.( formerly BC to AD).

We all know the "unholy" spirit that's at work. That spirit depends on your and my laziness
and perpetual ignorance. He does not want us to know what is at work at Madison. It's not the
Elders and it is not you and I. You will never find out unless you stop being lazy and try to
become informed. Stop being blind and look and learn what words mean and learn about subtile
word differences and how words are used. "Prove all things: hold fast that which is good."
(Read I Thessalonians 5:21). "------- compare spiritual things with spiritual." (read I
Corinthians 2:13).

It's a fact that if you ask people questions that require a little Bible study, logic or
common sense, or any deep thought, then few if any will respond. You can't make it
controversial because few people want to go out on a limb to express them selves.

So a sensible method would be to compare 4 things. Take your word processor or take 4 sheets
of paper and a pen or pencil and start 4 slightly different lists. Put the following topics at
the top of each page:

Page#1 Traditional Services-Good Things
Page#2 Traditional Services-Bad Things
Page#3 Contemporary Services-Good Things
Page#4 Contemporary Services-Bad Things

Be honest with yourself. Think and then read and read and then think. Some words to think
about are:

A. It is a good thing, it is not a good thing (read
I Corinthians 6:12,I Corinthians 10:23-24).
B. Causes controvery, doesn't cause controversy.
C. Causes a conflict, doesn't cause a conflict.
D. Causes church division, doesn't cause church
division(read Titus 3:8-11).
E. Is in the Bible, isn't in the Bible(read II Timothy
4:2-4, I Corinthians 4:6).
F. It's borderline or beyond sound doctrine (teachings of Jesus
Christ/Word of God), it's solid sound doctrine
(teachings of Jesus Christ/Word of God)(Read
Revelations 22:18-19, Titus 2:1,7,& 8).
G. Drives off older members, doesn't drive off older
members.
H. Drives off older members who contribute a lot,
doesn't drive off older members who
contribute a lot.
I. Drives off older members who are good Bible
teachers, doesn't drive off older members who are
good Bible teachers(read I Peter 5:5).
J. It's a lot of fun, it's not that much fun.
K. The membership is growing, the membership is not
growing (compare to 5-6 years ago).
L. The truth is being distorted to draw away disciples,
the truth is not being distorted nor are disciples being
drawn away (read Acts 20:28-31).
PERSONAL COMMENTARY: Because beloved
members are leaving it looks like we (you and I) are
allowing stealing of members (disciples) thru
"changing/transforming" current members and stealing the
church facilities and the ministries from the members who
have left but who devoted their life doing God's work.
Please don't respond with "It's just a building". You and I
have greater intellect than that. It's the good (or bad)
that can be done with this facility like Amazing Grace
which was somehow destroyed!
M. It makes our beloved Elders look bad, it doesn't
make our beloved Elders look bad.(read I Timothy 5:17).
N. Many members are distressed beyond belief, members are/were happy
and satisfied.

---- You get the idea. Think up other words along with these. Prove, test, and weigh all
things and compare all things(I Thessalonians 5:21).

Please send in your VOTE. Study and use the wisdom that God gave you. PUT YOUR EMOTIONS ASIDE.
(We often mistake SEROTONIN & ADRENALIN/EPINEPHRINE for the working of the Holy Spirit. I will
let you look those words up yourself.) This is where that "spirit" that is not holy likes to
play. This may be your only chance to voice your wishes. The forum owner and members of the
Church of Christ at Madison involved in this do not want Our church split, divided, or
worshiping separately. This conflict is about change by outside influences. Jesus Christ is
the same today, yesterday, and forever (read Hebrews 13:8). A popular question with the young
is "What would Jesus do?" What will you do, please?


This message has been edited by t on Sep 13, 2001 4:56 PM
This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2001 6:21 PM
This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2001 6:09 PM
This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2001 6:02 PM



  ===========================
member

Our? September 13 2001, 1:45 AM

The pronoun "our" is possessive. It shows clear ownership. To capitalize this pronoun makes it
proper, refering to Deity.

Seems that you feel we bought the church with our blood, and that being His body makes us
Deity. My brother, being the "body of Christ" does not pass His ownership of His church to us,
nor does it make us Deity. We are servants, lowly servants of our King.

This is not our church; this is especially not Our church! This church belongs to Him who paid
the price, Jesus the Christ, our Lord.

We have responsibilities within the Body, for example: we plant and water the seed of the
gospel, but it is God who brings growth. He gives the increase. Anything built on that corner
was built by our Father; sure many folks planted, many folks watered, but none other than God
could have brought forth growth. 1 Corinthians chapters 1 - 3 and on into 4 a bit. Please
remember your Lord. He is the great one. He is the owner. He is the only Deity.


This message has been edited by t on Sep 13, 2001 7:42 AM



  ===========================
ConcernedMembers


Forum Owner
The Final Report September 20 2001, 9:57 PM

There is not a split in the membership at Madison Church of Christ! This whole problem was
brought on by a small group of people within the church that have aligned themselves with
outside influences within the community church movement.

This small group has used the tools furnished to them by Saddleback to subvert the will of
most members by bringing on a community church program covertly.

The only split among the members is the perception of what's happening. They have pitted
member against member, so that their small group is not to blame.

So it's not about old, or new. It's not about change as much as it's simply about; Do you want
the Madison Church of Christ to join the community church movement, and the entertainment
platform that replaces teaching the word of God?


This message has been edited by t on Sep 20, 2001 10:02 PM



  ===========================
Peggy Buchanan


Stunning...... September 23 2001, 3:54 PM

The moderator of this forum and several of the responders are choosing to remain anonymous.
How cowardly is that?

If you have a gripe, fine. But, put a name and face to it. Be bold. You pretend to be standing
up for Christ, well, STAND UP!

I think this is shameful and a disgrace to our LORD that you are conducting surveys and polls
to stir up trouble within that particular part of the Church Body. How dare you? Do you think
the Father in Heaven will just wink at this?

You placed the elders and prayed G-d's guidance over them. Now let them do His work. If you
don't agree then maybe you are the one with a problem.

Leave Madison if you can't "play" there anymore, and take your ball with you, little boy.


This message has been edited by t on Nov 10, 2001 8:29 AM



  ===========================
Susan

Saddened October 19 2001, 11:30 PM

I just read through these posts and my heart is grieved. I am a Bible believing Christian, but
I am in Texas. I have never stepped foot in your church, and I won't. God can't get anything
done when His children are bickering in His name. It makes me sad to see so many people, who
obviously are sincere in their hearts, cannot accept each other.

Jesus accepted us all.

He did not condemn the adulteress. He wrote in the sand. I bet what he wrote was not a post
against what He thought should be.

The Bible says that MAN looks on the outward appearance, but GOD looks on the heart. I am
headed off for bed tonight, but I go sadly, with a prayer on my lips. The prayer is for all
who are divided, on either side. I imagine that Jesus is making the same prayer as He sits at
the right hand of the Father.

Pray and let God remove the sin if it is there, let God remove anyone who needs to be removed.
Go to the church He leads you to that sits right in your heart. But love. Jesus is about love.
And we can't hate out brothers or we don't love Him. And a lot of this is hate that sounds
like it is shrouded in doctrinal slang.

I pray for LOVE from the Father, through His Son, to penetrate every hurting, angry and/or
hateful heart. I pray the peace of God reigns and He has His way.

Blessings.

Susan

  ===========================
Alan Blackwell


Response to Stunning October 30 2001, 8:57 PM

I have no problem putting my name to this nor standing up boldly in the name of God. It is
just this type of thinking that has taken root not only in our body at Madison but in bodies
of Christ all over this country. While I have prayed for the Elders, they are not the "end
all/say all". God tells us in 1 Peter 5:3 that the elders are not to lord over those entrusted
to them, but to be examples to the flock. There is no question that with statements from our
eldership like "you will have to get over it" and "hijacking the pulpit" that this eldership
is lording over the flock. The divine word tells us further in 1 Timothy 5:19-20 how to go
about rebuking an elder. We must not take only those verses we like in the Bible such as the
"raising of holy hands" but also those that do not always fit well with our human agenda. It
is not simple enough to say pray for the elders and then let them do what they want. As a
Christian is my duty to follow all of God's word.

  ===========================
TD Evans

Who's Side are You On? October 30 2001, 10:48 PM

How much longer do you intend to keep this hate filled un-Christ like, Phariseical web site
operating? Yes Mr. Johnson, I am speaking of you. Mr. Jones wasn't so eager to stick around
Sunday and speak with his brothers and sisters in Christ, on either side. Could it be because
he's managed to hang himself on that long piece of rope that you've been making since Feb.?
I'm generally a loving person, and respectful of my elders. But it seems that you and Mr.
Jones and the "former deacons" that took the stage have forgotten that respect is not given,
it is earned. Rumor has it that you think that there are "Hidden Meanings and Hidden
Scripture" and that we've all been led astray. What are you, a twisted Fox Mulder in a
Christian X-Files Campaign? WAKE UP! Do you not see that the people you've encouraged to "with
hold their contributions" have put madison c of c in dire straits? And let's say you manage to
accomplish your goal of "running off these 2nd Service worshippers"? Can you spell..BANKRUPTCY
, Bobby? Of course I realize that you couldn't possibly take any public critisism, so
naturally this will be censored...I mean, MODERATED out. By the way, I love the freedom I have
in this country, and in Christ, but one of the things that none of us has is the freedom to
take a vote on matters in the church. The eldeship has those rights, as a governing body to
set up rules by which they make decisions. Those rules don't extend outside of their meetings
to the church. Those are Calvanistic in nature. We don't vote members In or OUT, and if I were
you, I'd thank God that we don't or you, Bobby, Mr. Jones and several others would have been
run out on a rail. You see, I'm just someone who actually wants to come to church to worship
in peace. Hands Raised or not. But this has nothing to do with a worship style, it has to do
with money, power, and property. Guess what Bobby? You might get the building, and manage to
poison the eldership, but even if you manage to get "rid" of the people you detest so very
much at madison, you won't hold the property more than 12 months before a bank forecloses on
it because the people you've managed to run off and the ones you've offended, won't be back
and unless some rich guy leaves madison his money (and if he won't do it in life, whay do it
in death?). Just a thought for you as you delete this message...Christ overturned the money
tables, he didn't burn the temple to the ground. Think long and hard about what you are doing
and what you are encouraging to take place.

  ===========================
Alan Blackwell


Dear Mr. Evans October 31 2001, 10:48 AM

How misguided can you be? I am so glad your message was published because it shows just how
angry you really are. I have been at Madison literally all my life. I am now 35 years old and
just to be honest could care less whether you raise your hands, clap your hands or stomp your
feet. I do not care whether you use the red, blue or green song book. I do not care whether
you use the King James Version or the NIV. What I do care about is the fact that because you
want to worship different than what is traditional at Madison you feel I must absorb your
beliefs or leave. For some reason everyone that believes these alternate ways of worship are
the way to be also believe that if I do not agree I should sit down and shut-up or leave. Once
again I will remind whoever needs to know that the Bible does not tell us to blindly follow
the elders in any decision that they make. These are mere men and prone to error. What this is
all about is not individual issues. It is about division and the fact that this eldership you
so exalt is the same eldership that brought the division and is promoting it. Therefore we
should not simply leave we should stand up for what God commands.

In Love,

Alan Blackwell

  ===========================
Susan

Saddened more November 3 2001, 10:30 PM

I am still following this--to an outsider it is easier to see. Don't you see? It is like the
beginning--Creation--Satan wanted worship HIS way, wanted to be Lord--He was the first worship
leader. The battle is not over personalities. It is over worship. I wish I could compel you
all to stop the hate. NO ONE is right when hate is involved. Please-please--for YOUR sakes (I
am a thousand miles away). Accept it or leave it in respect. But don't let it continue. The
Lord can never be pleased with dissension, battles and anger. He loves even the "other side."
Worship is what it was about on the day of creation and will still be about on the last day on
this old earth. Worship.

  ===========================
A TURE FOLLOWER

THE DEVIL IS LAUGHING November 27 2001, 5:55 PM

I HAVE BEEN A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH FOR OVER 35 YEARS - HARD TO BELIEVE IT'S BEEN THAT LONG. I
AM ALSO A PREACHER'S KID. I HAVE SEEN THE ALL THE BEAUTY AND ALL THE UGLINESS THAT EXIST IN
CHURCHES.
Because of what I witnessed, I quit attending church for over 8 years. I was disillusioned and
disheartened. I would read the bible and realize that something so simple and straightforward
was misused time and again by so called "christians". I was too young to be heard and too new
to be sure how to express my beliefs. I ran for a long time.

I know that what I will say here will anger some people. THose that are angered need to stop
and pray. They need to ask God are they really angry at my words or the truth behind them?

However, I met my spouse and began discussing the bible with him. He was of another
denomination who practiced "entertainment driven worship". He had stopped believing in God
because he felt strongly that what the bible stated was not what his religion followed. He is
a very practical type person who isn't easily fooled. He believed all christians were
hipocryts. Needless to say, I felt like one, too. So, we began studying the bible together and
reading it, simply as it was written - no adding, no subtracting. We didn't always like what
we read and knew we had to give up many things if we wished to reach our ultimate goal -
heaven.

20 years and two children later, we are devoted members of a wonderful church that is full of
love and obedience. We too fight some large churches in our area that do not adhere to the
word. They use the same excuses as the ones I have read on this website and I want to cry with
frustration everytime they speak.

Why do I become frustrated? Because, having lived in the "real" world and witnessed the depths
of sin - I know when I see and hear it. It is not easy to miss if you really want to find it.
However, the Devil is very cunning and Church members provide his biggest source of
entertainment and victories. Why waste time on the people out in the real world, they are
already lost? No, a smart person would spend their time focusing on the toughest prey. And we
all know the Devil is not stupid! By the way, if you are going to affect change in the highest
number of people - do you work slowly and steadily or do you hit them with a bang?

So, where is all these "new" worship practices coming from. Unfortunately, my age group (30's -
40's). We were unfulfilled with simple truths and love. We wanted what the "sinner" had - more
zest, more feelings, more everything. There had to be more to the experience than what was
written in the bible. We were smarter, more educated, more technologically advanced. We knew
so MUCH more than the first Christians. So, we began seeking new ways to gain this while still
trying to be pure in heart and spirit. Guess what? It can't be done. It's a simple fact of
life and nature that you cannot have everything and give up nothing. You loose something in
the need to fullfill yourself with more than the simple glory and love of God. You loose your
soul!!!

It's funny how the bible gives us such explicit and simple details regarding the Church and
yet we can still argue about it. I can't find anywhere in the bible the "new" practices.
Believe me, I've tried. I've had friends leave to attend churches like Madison C of C. Most
have all come back as they realized they were loosing something very precious.

Those of you spouting your anger on this page about freedom to do as you choose are correct.
You do have the freedom to do whatever you wish. God gave us that choice. However, he outlined
his will very simply and he explained over and over again that being a Christian was not
FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!. It is hard, it is trying, it is lonely, it is meek, its is the hardest
thing anyone can do. You can loose friends, family, jobs, etc. You will pay (in the real
world) for following Him. But the rewards are unbelievable.

I wonder if the need to have your way is really that important in the scheme of things? Does
raising your hand make you a better Christian? More faithfull? More obedient? Of course not.
They didn't then and we don't need to now. Jesus taught that it is better to pray alone in a
dark place than to try to prove your Christianity with outward signs. He felt your simple
daily behavior should be all the proof you needed. Do you think that may still apply today?
Or, are you above his law? Do you feel God's power is to weak to have written a law that
withstands the ages? Do you think he was limited in some way? Is what you want more important
than what he wants?

Stop and think about how the "new" practices are incorporating behavior from other religions.
You don't think something is wrong here? You really think that these other churches have
something we don't? Oh, that's right, they have larger numbers of false followers and larger
bank accounts.

What I find the saddest isn't that we are becoming liberal - that has happened over and over
since the Church began and we always come back to the truth. What I find the saddest is that
so called preachers like Lucado, Shelly, and many others have given up the truth for their own
glory. I've read their views and as an intelligent adult, find them almost laughable in their
attempts to try and find new reasoning. They have to go very far out of the way to get their
answers. I can't even begin to understand how supposedly "intelligent" men can come up with
the most ignorant reasonings. My six year old has out-reasoned them on some of the basics. But
then, the Devil works in many ways.

Baby dedications, women leading singing, songs, and lessons, musical instruments, trying to
show your "christianity" with hand raising, etc... are all signs that were addressed by Paul
and John. Those churches lost their "lights". So may these.

  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


Thank You. To "The Devil is Laughing" author November 30 2001, 11:27 AM

You said it extremely well. I hope many people read your statement. I do not however,
understand why you chose to remain anonymous. Thank You anyway.

  ===========================
Scott


Thank you February 11 2002, 12:52 PM

I realize, I am posting to this site about a year after its origination (as far as I can
tell), but I find myself both encouraged and discouraged. I am encouraged because of the open
dialogue that is flowing between members. On the other hand I am discouraged by the sharpness
of the language used by some. Heated discussions can do more harm that even tempered exchanges
of thought and study. We all need to take a look at James 3 again -- blessing and cursing from
the same tongue?

Specifically, I want to thank the author of the Devil is Laughing. She has come full circle
and has every right to help each of us as we study. There was a good bit of wisdom in her
words. I too am in the 30-40 range and feel I understand exactly where she has been, from
"growing up in the Church" to leaving it for a more "contemporary" worship experience, only to
return again to her roots.

In my own life experience I have been the pendulum. From concervative roots, to clapping and
raising hands, to being a part of a worship team (as a youth minister), and finally to some
serious open Bible, open minded, open heart study and soul searching. What I discovered about
my good intentions was that my contemporaries and I were trying to lead teens and young adults
to worship through manipulation (a spiritual pep rally if you will). Our intent was that if we
had them raise hands, clap hands, etc. they would enjoy their "time with God" and be motivated
to live a good clean, fruit of the Spirit-filled life. What we did was get the cart before the
horse. I have come full-circle and am back to Bible roots.

Now my aim as a preacher, and one who is still involved with youth, is to bring them to know
God through obedience to the gospel Jesus Christ (2 Thess 1:7-10). When one comes to
understand their sinfullness and the grace of God, they will (and do) respond. Their joy at
their undeserved salvation leads them to worship in Spirit and in Truth. It is what John
through the Spirit wrote so many years ago, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that
He loved us and gave us His Son . . ." (1 John 4:10).

Thnk you for an avenue of discussion. It is my prayer that many individuals will be lead to
(and back to God) through open Bibles and open hearts. Let us not not be afraid of change,
when the change is demanded by God to be approved of Him (cf. James 1:22-25)

  ===========================
Jon Edmonds


In response to: Who's Side are You On? by TD Evans February 28 2002, 4:19 PM

I was just curious as to what or to whom you are referring?

-Jon Edmonds

  ===========================
Jon Edmonds


response to alan blackwell's response to stunning... February 28 2002, 3:58 PM

Amen thats all i have to say to that one.

  ===========================
Mike

to MADISON : Remember what happened to them??? November 9 2001, 10:15 PM

When Nadab and Abihu (spelling?) decided to spice up the worship service with 'strange fire'
God struck them dead right there!


aaawwwwww was God too mean? After all it could have drew a Big crowd!

God's Not a Liberal..

  ===========================
Kathleen Topp


a concern sister September 17 2002, 2:50 PM

I agree with your statement. If the lord wanted things like that in the he would have said so.
we should add or take away from his word.Also I am a member of the West Main Church of Christ
in Okolono, MS. My prayers and concerns are with you.

  ===========================
Jeff Day

Adding or taking away September 17 2002, 11:12 PM

How do you reconcile your statement with the fact that we HAVE added to the word in the form
of church buildings, kitchens in church buildings, Wednesday night worship, song leaders, etc.
We have used the idea of "being silent where the word is silent" selectively.

Grac and Peace.

Jeff

  ===========================
Mike

A SOLUTION... (that won't be listened to,) (ha) November 9 2001, 10:17 PM

The ones who are wanting change,.. Let them start their own "free will Baptist" congregation
some place else; and leave the great works and reputation that Madison HAD to the ones that
Made it!

  ===========================
Daniel Hooper


You really stuck it to 'em! November 12 2001, 11:12 PM

Like the title says.... yeah, you told them. Start their own church. That's the ticket!
As an outside observer, this whole situation sickens me deeply. As a christian, it shames me
to have such a bickering battle associated with me. It seems that no one (or few) posting to
this board are interested in any real resolution. It's either 'kick out all the holy rollers'
or 'make the old fogies accept us'. That will get reeeeeeal far. Eventually everyone will get
tired of fighting and give up (and leave). Then who will have the church back? The government,
after they reposes the land. Sounds like a solution to me. It's obviously better than this
*ahem* holy war that's going on right now.

A lot of this post has been very sarcastic, but here I'm serious:
I don't know what your worship services are like, but I have a feeling they aren't as bad as
people make them out to be. Some one is raising hands in worship...hmm...might make me a
little uncomfortable too.....somebody's clapping in worship...that probably would bother me
quite a bit. I've discovered over the last year or two (on my own, I might add) that the
uncomfortable feeling comes from unfamiliarity. Actively address this to yourself, then make
decisions...don't let the way you were raised determine the way you cannot worship, because
what if they were wrong? What if no one is wrong and you are all fighting a pointless (yet
destructive) battle? I find the second possibility highly likely. Have any of you even
considered how this looks to other churches and even non-christians? We are supposed to be a
light to the world, and people look at this horrible division and say 'how could they sink to
that?'
Oh, and one more thing while I'm here; this IS how denominations were started in the first
place. 'well *I* want to worship *THIS* way'.....'well _I_ want to worship _THIS_ way'...'well
*FINE*!'....'well _FINE_!' And ladies and gentlemen, we have a new denomination. Do you really
want "Madison Community Church, founded by members of Madison Church of Christ" inscribed in a
plaque in front of someone's church? If not, make a decision to work it out. DO something
POSITIVE for reconciliation, because right now simple dialogue has turned into bitter
argument. LOVE your neighbor; if you believe him to be sinning, correct him with LOVE. This
message has waxed long, so I'll stop here, but know that you will not have resolution until
you put down your fire (tongues), so please, please, please, for the sake of everyone at
madison, and for the sake of all those on the outside watching this horrible train wreck
unfold, please TRY to find resolution before it's too late.

  ===========================
Joe McKnight

Let tell you where you can go November 22 2001, 7:27 AM

No I'm not going to cuss you out, but it does get your attention. I was on the Willow Creek
website the other night and it has a page that will help you find a church that is a member of
their association. It will give you a list of churches in your area YOU can attend if YOU want
to be, or worship, like them. In the Nashville area YOU are blessed with several churches that
are members of their association. Even if you want to continue YOUR association with the name
church of Christ. YOU can pick from Woodmont Hills, Harpth Hills, or Donelson churches of
Christ. I thought it interesting that McoC was not listed yet. I guess the transformation is
not complete, or the website has not been update.
Love ya
Joe McKnight


  ===========================
Mike

A SOLUTION... (that won't be listened to,) (ha) November 9 2001, 10:23 PM

There's NO way in life to take a stand for anything and Not be biased! Understand that!!!!
So therefore You are too. The question is,
#1 Who's right and who's wrong?. And an even better question is,
#2 Who can PROVE their case????..


(ps. is your "disagree-er" resorts to falsly accusing, whining and pleading to all just get a
long, it means you've done an ok job presenting your case :) Just stick with the facts!

  ===========================
Lynn

Untitled November 9 2001, 10:25 PM

How does a person deal with these liberalistic types of attitudes? I'm like, 'is this how they
see us?' They're accusing us of being everything we're not! We just stick with the facts and
they just whine.. (like I am now, in this paragraph, ha) Saying basically that they have a
right to be biased themselves, but if you disagree, you better not be, but by definition you
already are, so you've now been made into a hypocrite by them? arrrg this is a mess.

  ===========================
Danny

Worship on earth is practice for heaven, agree? December 12 2001, 9:29 PM

If you are able to agree that instruments were used in worship to God (check out Psalms) the
during the times described by the Old Testament and if you are able to agree that the New
Testament discusses instruments in worship to God in heaven, and if you are able to agree that
worship on earth is at least practice for worshipping God when (should) we get to heaven then
how could anyone be convinced that instruments in worship during today's praise service is
wrong; further, how can anyone be convinced that no instruments in today's worship service is
'right'? The issue is man-contrived and unfortunately bringing focus to a point somewhere
other than that directed by Jesus ("great commission" ring any bells?).


  ===========================
Bosco


Purpose Driven is BAD NEWS for the churches of Christ December 18 2001, 9:43 PM

I am not a member of the Madison church of Christ, but I am a member of the church of Christ
in Jonesboro AR. About three years ago we started using the purpose driven church method. At
first I thought it might have been a good thing, but as time goes by it seems that Purpose
Driven is the worst thing we could have done. It somehow creates a specific class of people we
are looking for and excludes all others. Whatever happened to "The Gospel is For All"?.
Also it seems to be making a complicated power-broking system in the church takes takes only
the "Core" members viewpoint into play. Most of the people that began our church are now gone
to other places and the preppy in class are now in charge. May God help us all.
Bosco
mailto:sgott@orvismail.com

  ===========================
Dr. Bill Crump

Request for Clarification January 5 2002, 1:15 PM

I am a member of a Baptist church. But I have studied this website quite closely and have read
most of the articles and comments by Madison COC members for and against the "change" to the
Willow Creek/Saddleback purpose-driven (P-D) method.

I can understand the objections to introducing any instrumental music into Madison's worship
services, since instruments would defeat one of the basic principles upon which the Church of
Christ stands.

I request clarification about Madison's other objections to this "change". The multitude of
pages here allege that the P-D method presents worship "entertainment" with a dilute version
of Scripture that will be more attractive to the general public. Can you or someone else be
more specific about how the P-D method corrupts or abuses Scripture to be more attractive? I
didn't see any real examples of this on this site. For example, does the P-D method avoid
specific biblical subjects such as sin, Hell, baptism, and divorce. Please be as specific as
you can.

In my own church, I am seeing some changes that may be based on the P-D method. I have not yet
detected pastoral departure from Scripture in the pulpit, but there is heavy usage of
contemporary music with a so-called "praise team" and a rock band, along with ensemble groups.
In my opinion, this trend is aimed at the teens and young adults to keep them from being
"bored" and going somewhere else. The pastor introduced this music about two years ago without
approval of the church body. We still sing a few traditional hymns with organ and piano for
the benefit of the senior adults. The choir occasionally presents a short anthem, but the de-
emphasis there and on the traditional is quite apparent.

  ===========================
Joggin

this is so silly January 11 2002, 6:30 PM

You have got to be kidding me. People are dying and going to hell out there and you people are
arguing about hand clapping.

Get real. You need to visit Grace Centered Online (http://www.gcmagazine.net). Perhaps you
will learn from the wise people who write there. Maybe even be part of a real discussion
board.

Jo

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz


Response to "this is so silly" January 18 2002, 12:29 PM

No, this is not so silly. Pointing out the notion that handclapping is the main issue at
Madison shows your ignorance of what this website is trying to accomplish and your ignorance
of the scriptures. After you have carefully analyzed the contents and the various links of
this site (and you need to do that), you will discover that the main issue has to do with how
and why the "purpose-driven church" program has been embraced by churches including Madison
... when the primary objective of the program is not even to start building its own churches,
but acquiring ("capturing" is more like it) existing ones in order to cause division and
confusion, as well as to enrich (i.e., financially) the lives of its leaders. Handclapping,
while insignificant (NO BIG DEAL!) to the people who do it and who "assume" that God REALLY
"enjoys" listening to the NOISE of this DIVINE performance (act) of handclapping "as much as
HUMANS do" (this just might be a good example of "man's wisdom is foolishness to God"), is
quite a distraction to those who want to worship God with reverence and "in Spirit
(understanding or mind -- not emotional outburst) and in truth." Handclapping is just the
beginning of this devious program ... it will lead eventually to other "silly" things (as you
say) which will SECULARIZE the church of our Lord and cause it to depart from the truth.

As far as the Bible is concerned, what should be practiced by the believers (and that includes
the command to worship) must not be based on the negative approach that something is
scriptural because the Bible does not say "NOT TO." Christ's church was established in the New
Testament era, unlike the assemblies of those people during Abraham's time or of the
Israelites under Moses who lived under different laws. Therefore, the safest approach to a
specific belief or doctrine is to determine whether it can be proven (1) as a direct command
from God or (2) if there is an example of it for believers to emulate or follow or (3) by
necessary inference.

You can continue your handclapping as much as you like and to the point that you get the
attention of the one(s) you're most likely to distract in worship ... hoping that God "thinks
like you do" and also "enjoys" your programmed handclapping, in sync with your fellow
handclappers. I would suggest that you also get emotional with your handclapping while you're
singing to worship in your own privacy. (Just curious if you even clap while you sing all by
yourself to God. Or, are you too embarrassed or you don't think to do it all alone? Or, do you
wait until worship time to do this in order to perform it well?)

  ===========================
Jeremy Howard


Response to Response to "this is so silly" January 19 2002, 5:27 PM

I still don't understand why this website still exists. I don't know why certain people post
to this board. There should be a rule established that you have to have seen the things going
on at Madison before you open your mouth. For instance, the forum owner no longer attends
Madison, so how could he provide a true account of what's going on? Unless you've been at the
heart of the matter, you should stay out of the mess, because you're only making it worse.
I've seen so many responses from people that say "I don't go to Madison, but..." and end up
adding more fuel to the fire. You people remind me of Nero -- after burning the city of Rome,
he blamed the Christians because they were a small, almost unrecognized group at the time, and
it would be an easy scapegoat. You're representing Nero, and the more contemporary members
represent the Christians who are blamed. Why don't you actually think about what you're
posting before you actually hit the "Respond!" button?

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Response to Jeremy's "Silly" Defense January 20 2002, 9:34 PM

Let me analyze each of your sentences: (1) Simply accept the fact that this website exists
just as well as the fact that there is such a thing that we call the "internet" -- it is part
of life in this era. If you think hard enough, don't worry ... you will soon understand. This
website is really simpler than most of the sites that deal with political, social and other
religious issues. It exists so that people like you get a chance for rebuttal and express your
points of view. In fact, this isn't the first time that you have responded via this
website!!!! Am I correct? (2) Are you saying that only "certain people" like you be the only
ones allowed to post messages? (3) Would you prefer a rule that should exclude you because you
are not sensitive enough to understand the feelings of those that you offend? (4) I definitely
have the right to open my mouth because I've been there. I attend the second service because
that happens to be a better schedule for me. I am aware of the programmed handclappling by a
few same folks. Jeremy, do you remember when that wasn't so in years past, and the church got
along just fine? The point with clapping of hands is not even whether it is wrong or not. It
has more to do with what you're doing to others that want to worship in reverence. This
favorite act of handclapping -- this we can definitely do without!!! And what's wrong with
singing without it? The forum owner does not have to be there now -- the forum owner already
knows, and is not the only one who knows. Many others know. (5) Don't blame the members that
have already left or the ones that explain the real truth of this severe situation on this
website. Instead, you should blame the "change" agents who are there to disrupt. The change
agents and supporters of this apostasy like you should take the responsibility for this
division. The Madison congregation was just fine until all this "gradual" change came about.
(6) Your illustration on Nero is the opposite of reality. Nero (the "community church"
movement) was introduced into Madison -- and the "burning of the city" began and this fire has
not yet been extinguished. The change agency, of which you are a part, is blaming the faithful
believers who have left. Just as I've already said ... Madison was doing just fine until it
was "captured" and "controlled." (7) I believe that people like me give it a lot of thought
before posting anything.

  ===========================
claudia cannady


Where is Madison January 22 2002, 5:06 PM

Where is the Madison Church of Christ. Sorry you all are having problems. Most churches are
having problems though. I rarely go anymore cause when I do there's always some mess going on.
Or some false teaching. Does anyone really care?

  ===========================
Joe McKnight

What to do? January 24 2002, 3:07 PM

claudia cannady



Where is the Madison Church of Christ. Sorry you all are having problems. Most churches are
having problems though. I rarely go anymore cause when I do there's always some mess going on.
Or some false teaching. Does anyone really care?


Oh Dear Sister:
I understand my wife was a member of the First Baptist, and she too is going through this too.
God has been revealing truth to me and exposing the lies that have been taught and have I
accepted in the church of Christ, it has become difficult for me to attend churches of Christ.
In the past 3 years I have attend different denomination and I have found, it seems that
everybody has some truth, but all have become an apostate church. This is understandable see
how Jesus prophesied that it would be this way, in the End Times. Some times I just want to
give up and just worry about myself, but the Holy Spirit just will not let me. When some
greets me at church and ask where I am a member, I just tell them I have a prison ministry
that I just go around to different prisons and see if anyone wants to be free. Goes over real
well, but it does cut to the bone and I can find out real quick if I am wasting time or not,
but usually it is conversation over. My hope and prayer is that I could at least get people to
ask “What are you talking about, show me.” But I have come to understand that people have God
stuffed into a box that they are comfortable with and if you get near that box they get very
aggressive in their defense of their box. You see if you open their “God box” and he comes
out, their life is going to change, and that is not acceptable. I basically go now to take the
Lord’s supper (Claudia; there are some that read this and would like to stone me for making
that statement). Claudia all I can tell you is: DO NOT GIVE UP ask the Holy Spirit what you
are to do, He will show you. It took a lot of class time (Trails) to get me to the point of
understanding intercessory prayer; You take it to the cross and leave it there.
One other thing, Be careful whose cover you go under. I doubt that I will ever go under the
cover of another Eldership again. I will just keep the cover of Jesus Christ and forget man. I
do not know if your are married or not. If you are married just keep your husband’s cover;
you’ll be all right.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight


  ===========================
Anonymous

Seek Jesus for Yourself - A Former Member of 30 plus years January 25 2002, 8:49 AM

We were members of Madison for a very long time. We recently switched our membership to
another congregation. We felt out of place and unwelcome because we did not raise our hands
and clap. It made us feel uncomfortable. Our teenager told us that the clapping in the youth
department was a joke to the kids. And we also found out that the Sunday School class
consisted of watching "The Lion King" and studying various Contemporary Christian Artists'
music. We don't feel that Christian music is bad - it's a lot better than some of the music
teenagers can listen to, but, we didn't feel that it was appropriate for kids to study it in
Sunday School. Some families don't allow this kind of music in the home and that is a family
decision, not a youth leader's decision.
Growing up at Madison, we used to study the Bible. We used to have Vacation Bible School and
we loved it. All this to say, we moved to another church. It was a hard decision for us
becuase we've had a lot invested at Madison. Study the Bible for yourself and pray that God
will lead you to know Jesus and have a relationship with him. It's not about praise teams,
care groups, etc. It's about making Jesus Lord of your life, loving others, and not always
having to go along with the crowd. God bless.


This message has been edited by t on Jan 25, 2002 7:05 PM



  ===========================
Anonymous

Jim Hinkle is leaving Madison January 25 2002, 1:44 PM

Why is Jim Hinkle leaving Madison?


This message has been edited by t on Jan 25, 2002 7:08 PM



  ===========================
someone who loves God

Re: Where is Madison October 4 2002, 9:22 PM

I am so sorry that you are not going to church anywhere because of division in the church. My
heart pours out to you. Remember that God loves you and wants you to be saved. You can't let
other people stand between you and God. You must obey God rather than man. There is a judge
for the one who rejects Gods word and God will pay each acording to his own works. God said,
" Dont give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing. We must worship God on the
first day of the week. This is a command. As long as the earth exists, their will always be
division, trouble and heartache in the church. Satan is on the full run, he knows his time is
short. Why do you think all this division is happening amoungst the church? He takes our focus
off the lost so no one is saved. A house divided against itself will not stand and satan knows
that. Please pray and get in the word. Be like the bereans who studied the scriptures daily to
prove what is being preached is the gospel. You will still need to find a congregation that
teaches bible truths but remember to fix your eyes on Jesus because people will always
disapoint you!!!

In christ's love,

Lori and Pam

  ===========================
Dr. Bill Crump


Follow-up on My Earlier Post January 29 2002, 1:02 PM

Earlier in January, 2002, I posted a note expressing interest in this site. Permit me a bit of
further introduction. I was raised in the Church of Christ in Nashville, TN, became a member
of a COC there and graduated from David Lipscomb College in 1971. During my years in medical
school, residency training and later practice, I lost contact with going to church. I am now a
retired physician.

Four years ago I took a post as Organist for a Baptist church in Nashville, feeling that I
could handle the "few doctrinal differences." Two years ago, the relatively young pastor
introduced a "praise team" into what had originally been a "traditional" church of its type
with organ, piano, and choir as the principal sources of music. This praise team now consists
of several younger singers and musicians who play a variety of instruments and drums. The
songs are often loud, upbeat, contemporary numbers, many of which are indistinguishable from
those heard at secular rock concerts, except for the use of "Christian" lyrics. Other soloists
and ensemble groups at this church more frequently use tapes and CDs as their accompaniment,
because they want the "big orchestral sound" backing them up. Some of these groups are semi-
professional, having either made a few marketable CDs or are attempting to. While there are
still a few traditional hymns sung with "traditional" instruments, it is clear that the
contemporary is nudging out the traditional, and "entertainment" is a prominent feature.

Although the pastor would deny the designation "entertainment," he boasts about the beauty of
the now "diverse" worship styles within the same service. Yet the sudden introduction of a
rock band into a church, whose membership is roughly 50% senior adults, has created
considerable controversey. The pastor, however, would that anyone objecting to the changes
remain quiet or leave the congregation.

So I resigned as Organist earlier this month and left this church. In my resignation letter, I
severely criticized "praise music" as nothing but entertainment and stated that I was looking
for a more mature worship environment. The pastor, incensed at such criticism, replied that it
was I who was immature, because I could not accept "diversity" in worship.

Although I do not subscribe to Rick Warren's market-driven methods for church growth, he makes
a good point in his book "The Purpose Driven Church." He clearly warns against introducing
radical or diverse worship styles in an established traditional church, unless everyone is
willing to accept the resistance and conflict that would certainly arise. Any changes in the
way we "do church" should be implemented when a church is first built.

Therefore it is wrong and selfish for a group of people to charge into an established church
with its established doctrine and deliberately initiate change simply to make church more
attractive. Such people should start their own church, not disrupt and create havoc within an
old and respected congregation such as Madison Church of Christ. The established membership
should cast out such interlopers.

  ===========================
Dr. Bill Crump


Be Thoroughly Familiar with Both Sides February 1 2002, 11:24 AM

When any controversial topic arises, it's best to be as familiar with both sides of the issue
as possible. Then you can defend your own position without sounding like a wild, ignorant
fanatic.

So it is with this new wave, variously called the "church growth movement," "purpose-driven
church," or "market-driven church," which induces higher church attendance and membership
through entertainment and programs that "meet people's felt needs." It's a movement which, in
short, transforms a church from the God-centered to the man-centered.

Regardless of any church affiliation, before people make a decision for or against accepting
this movement, they should read at least two works from cover to cover: (1) "The Purpose
Driven Church" by Rick Warren (Zondervan, 1995) and (2) an internet article titled "The Market-
Driven Church: A Look Behind the Scenes" by Gary Gilley. These works masterfully present the
pros and cons, respectively, of this movement. Warren's book can be found in any bookstore,
and a link to Gilley's article is found elsewhere on this site.



  ===========================
Dr. Bill Crump


Spreading the Truth Will Offend Others March 15 2002, 2:08 PM

Not long after I left a Baptist church in Nashville, I emailed the minister of music a link to
Paul Proctor's article "Christian Rock: The Music of a Dying World." I felt that someone
should begin to inform this church that its preference for contemporary and "Christian" rock
music was certainly not biblical. He made no response. More likely, he just hit the "delete"
key. About a month later, I emailed him links to Mr. Proctor's two-part article on "The
Apostate Church." This time, his wife responded with the following:

"Thanks, Bill. But as for me (I do not speak for my husband), my joy, as well as my time, is
found in my relationship with Christ. I have neither time nor interest in devisive soundings
that seem to preoccupy so many. I will simply continue to approach my God daily for my
understanding and not look to the wisdom of men, which is so often embroiled in negativity and
unnecessary discourse. In other words, there's too much evangelism and mission to be done
around me to waste my time on a computer, trying to change the minds of those who already have
a personal relationship with Christ. If my God is as omnipotent as I believe He is, He is
capable of doing that. I will spend my time on what I was commanded to do, GO - TELL- TEACH -
BAPTIZE. I love Paul's advice to Timothy when he was faced with the same situation. Free in
Christ, ______."

What could I say in the face of this self-righteous answer? I simply emailed her back with an
apology and stated that I would never again send her any more emails like that. I am confident
that neither her nor her husband's minds will ever be changed.

I sensed a bit of controlled anger in her response, anger perhaps because she may have read
the articles (I don't know). In any case, I sensed that she was offended and did not want to
hear or read anything that contradicted her "religion." When I left their church, the minister
of music (who had formerly been a member of the Church of Christ himself) said that he had
grown weary of debating doctrine in the COC and joined the Baptist church to win souls for
Christ!

So I guess spreading the truth creates "negativity" if it doesn't jive with the world's
concept of the modern Church. And to those who refuse to listen, the Truth does sound
"devisive." For them, we can only shake away the dust from our feet and move on.

  ===========================
Dr. Bill Crump


Follow-Up to "Spreading the Truth Will Offend Others" March 16 2002, 3:13 PM

Within a few hours of receiving a "controlled anger" response from the wife of my former
minister of music, the man himself graced me with these words:

"As she said, she does not speak for me, although I certainly agree with what she said. I do,
however, find these Internet articles interesting...not persuasive...but interesting. May I
say that I really don't know anything about Saddleback or Willow Creek or any other "mega-
church"...nor do I wish to. Right now, I'm only concerned about what the Lord is doing at [my]
Baptist Church and how I can be used by Him there."

That's well said. But I also knew nothing about Saddleback and Willow Creek until after I left
my former church. I just sensed that things were not "right" there. After hearing about the
church growth movement and doing considerable research, I then realized that elements of that
movement had already infiltrated my former church. This minister of music and his wife are
typical of many well-meaning Christians who are unable to discern when real trouble is afoot.
Their sole, intense mission of winning souls for Christ actually blinds them to change agents
masquerading as pastors, elders, deacons, and other members. While one eye seeks the lost, the
other eye must be vigilant for foxes raiding the chicken coop.

Some weeks ago in the church's newsletter, my former pastor denied that he was leading his
church toward a Saddleback or Willow Creek model. Yet his church holds "blended" services (not
separate services) with both contemporary and traditional elements because he personally likes
the "variety," that "it keeps things interesting." His reference to the church's "worship
center" probably raised eyebrows, but the following statement was most disturbing:

"What determines our musical selections? The people God is sending us determines our musical
selections... Warning: If we don't watch it the people God is sending our way due to the very
type of blended service we are doing will no longer show up and then where will we be? We'll
be like all the other dead churches in this area."

If the pastor's comments reek neither of Saddleback nor of Willow Creek, I have a bridge to
sell you in New York. I'm convinced that churches with "blended" services are simply in the
intermediate stage of transformation from a traditional church to a worldly community church.
Yet this poor minister of music and his wife haven't a clue (and don't want to know) about
what's going on. But they HAVE been warned!

  ===========================
Joe McKnight

I suspect: Hirelings March 16 2002, 10:13 PM

Brother Crump:
I suspect that what you were up against were Hirelings and not your average pew-warmer. Pew-
warmers just ignore ya. Another clue that you are dealing with Hirelings is both are paid
position and both are interested in increasing the numbers so to increase their check. So do
not let this response to your demonstration of love and concern for their souls, get you down.
I can only recommend intercessory prayer. If the Holy Spirit can't get to them nothing will.
Besides it is the Holy Spirit's job to keep the Church.
I think you did good by presenting and then not pushing. The only thing that kills us: people
like you and me, is that the Hirelings control the lines of communications to the flock and we
fear that the flock does not have a clue because they are not getting the information. I have
found that is only parcel truth, I think most christians have God cramed into a box and just
want to get their ticket punched and left alone.


  ===========================
Joe McKnight

Purpose Driven Potholes February 1 2002, 12:00 PM

Purpose Driven Potholes

The Potholes of the Purpose Driven church are discreet and undetectable by the spiritual
ignorant of this generation. I say this generation, because after years of milk sermons
focused on evangelism only, we have neglected the spiritual growth needed to fight off satanic
infiltration. Just a few years ago, this same type of movement was afoot known as the Cross
Road movement. The church was still strong enough to wart off this attack. Today it is
apparent that the remnant of the old guard as diurnal down to a state that is weak enough that
the old guard can be of no effect. (It is very important that you understand that for the
moment I am talking in and of the physical aspects of the church; I will explain later) Some
of the other props on this stage are rooted in numbers. The size of the congregation in
relationship to the size of debt. As you study the history of these takeovers you will notice
that the teaching is align to reprogramming members to the Purpose Driven doctrine and not to
Christ. The most noticeable change in a congregation is the worship format. The relationship
of these two areas, teaching and worship are very important to understand. The commotion
stirred up over singing, praise teams, new songs, rock-in-roll bands etc. is a smoke screen to
cover up the true satanic activities. This is covered very will in the articles on Hegelian
Dialectic. So lets spend time examine the true problems of the Purpose Driven church and the
modern Church.
The underlying change of the Purpose Driven church is to guild the congregation completely
away from God and Jesus. The most complete turning away is to introduce other gods into the
Church. This is why I cry out so much, to the point it seems that I am single minded about the
pagan holidays in the Church. Christmas and Christmas trees, Easter, Valentine, and Halloween
are standards in the mega-churches that are moving into a Purpose Driven church. This is a
tool used to patronize the masses to lure them in, to increase the numbers thus increasing the
coffers. This also increases the prominent social standing of the leaders of that
congregation. One day while discussing the problems at Madison, an Elder told me “Well, come
to church with us, because we don’t have any of that at our congregation.” My response was
“No, but it is in your homes. What is the difference?” One of the major neglects of the Modern
church of Christ, which has set the stage for the introduction of pagan worship in the Church,
is NOT STUDYING THE SPIRIT WORLD! We do not know pagan worship when it is starring us in the
face, much less, participating in it. The uno-number one sin that our neglectful studying has
leaded us into is BLASPHEMING the Holy Spirit! Thus our compass, Comforter, Protector, and
Teacher is of no effect. We have forced Him to remove His hand and we are left to will of
Satan, and we are no match on our own. This is the true problem of the Modern church of
Christ, we have accepted lies about the Holy Spirit; He was not just for the first century
Church or just for the Apostles. Until we turn away from this abomination, we will continue to
wither and will die!
I am 46 years old, when I was growing up in the church of Christ there were more anti-
congregations than liberal-congregations. I was a member of an anti. There were no kitchens,
pagan holidays, praise teams in our building. It got to the point that there were no weddings,
because you could not play musical instruments in the building. People would go to other
churches to get married. Yes we crossed over the line, but our building was clean, “yea’ra”.
Is it no wonder these congregations were not growing, and even dying? Yes there has to be
change, but be careful, what you change into. If you op to change, you open windows and even
doors to Satan and this is why so many resist change to the point of dying. You have to use
the Test to guide you through the changes. (The Test: Who is Jesus Christ, what is the fruit,
do the Prophets line up, and does it line up with the Word. Refer to the article The Test.)
The changes we have to do, and has to be first, number one, is TURN TO THE Holy Spirit! Let
Him work His work. His main purpose is to KEEP the Church, but we effect His ability to work
in our life and the Church. We most stop filtrating the Holy Spirit!


To God Be the Glory
Joe McKnight


  ===========================
Joe Mcknight

Illiterate February 4 2002, 9:46 AM

My wife got a big laught out of my use of words when she read this one. Diurnal, which has
something to do with a 24 hour period or open during daylight hours. What I mean to use was
Dwindled as in tapered off. A word precessor, even if it has spell and grammer check it is a
dangerous thing in the hands of the illiterate, but my dear wife is trying to help save the
world, she has downloaded a dictionary onto our computer. Thank you honey. I hope it helps.

  ===========================
Joe McKnight

The Test February 1 2002, 12:04 PM

The Test
Who is Jesus Christ?

This is a very important question and also is the very first to be asked.
The answer is He is the Son of God, which lives, He is God.

I John 2:22, Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist,
that denieth the Father and the Son 23, Whosoever denieth the Son the same hath not the
Father.

II John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ
is come in the flesh, This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man Speaking by the Spirit of
God calleth Jesus accursed: and no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I John 4:1-6 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 hereby know ye the Spirit of God,
Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every
spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is
that of antichrist whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in
the world 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that
is in you, than he that is in the world, 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the
world, and the world heareth them, 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us: he that is
not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

As you read the Word, you understand that not only do you test others and the spirits with
this question, but you also test yourself. Check out I John 4:6 again. We are of God: he that
knoweth God heareth us: he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of
truth, and the spirit of error. See, if you can not believe the Word, it is because you are
not of God.
II Peter 3: Peter is talking about the promises of the millennium kingdom. In verses 15 &16 he
talks about the wisdom of Paul’s teachings, they are hard to understand and that the unlearned
wrest with the scriptures, even to their own destruction. Brother and Sister: I plead with
you: if you have trouble understanding the scriptures, do not wrestle with them and make them
fit your own lust; Pray, ask God for his Grace, to have the Holy Spirit give you
understanding. HE WILL, He wants to so badly, but you have to ask to give him permission.
These are some other scriptures that teach the rest of the test that we are to administer to
spirits, prophets, apostles, teachers, pastors, or whoever comes in the name of God.
They line up with other Prophets. I Corinthians 14:29-33,
I Corinthians 12:1-14
They will line up with the Word. Acts 17:11 Galatians 1:6-12, Romans 16:16-18
Check their fruit.
Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are
ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or
figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree
bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt
tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:3-20
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you,
as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not
convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean
person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ
and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the
wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. F15 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving
what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which
are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved F16 are made manifest by the
light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that
sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk
circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not
drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves
in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus

Jude 1:8-14
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of
dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the
body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke
thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know
naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for
they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and
perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they
feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about
of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the
blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these,
saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
A fruit check is not just showing signs of the Holy Spirit listed in Galatians 5. Those are an
acid test to see if the Holy Spirit is in you. If you do not showing these signs, you need to
Ask God, the Holy Spirit why?
Back to the applying a fruit check. When fruit falls from a tree the same, kind of fruit is
laying around it. This is not to say you are not to live in the world, but who do you choose
to be in your inter circle? How can a child of God be a member of a secret society, free
mason, skull and bones, occult, practice pagan god worship? These people say one thing and do
another. So how do you know when they are telling the truth and are not? You apply the whole
test, not just parts of it.
It is important that we understand and apply this test; As the Last Generation, we will
witness an increase in false teachings, but we also most deal with the false teachings of the
past. Just because you have been taught religious traditions does not mean you been taught the
truth. Remember it was religious traditions that God used to nail Christ to the cross.


To God Be the Glory
Joe McKnight


  ===========================
Chuck Sonn


Re: Request for Clarification March 16 2002, 5:34 PM

Dear Dr. Crump,

I appologize for the rest of our church family, or former church family that frequent this
site, for not addressing your heartfelt concern for the other elements of worship at Madison,
as well as doctrinal beliefs. If there were any other objections I'm sure they would have been
aired by now, more than 2 months after your original posting. I'm sure you realize it by now,
but I said I would respond publicly. Trust me, and the rest of those watching, that Madison is
deeply entrenched in the traditional church of Christ doctrine in every respect. I can find no
deviation from the desire to be the "1st century church" for the most part. My question though
is why do we want to be like them? How many books were written to them rebuking their actions?
Half the NT? Why can't we just follow Jesus and remember His 2 basic commands...love GOD with
all you got...and your neighbor like yourself...with all you got!!

  ===========================
KM

encouragement February 9 2002, 11:45 AM

As an outsider who happened to stumble upon your site, I am very saddened for you all, that
your church is in such a state. Not knowing the whole story, I see that there are two sides. I
would like to give a few thoughts on the situation if you'll allow me. The folks who have been
around for awhile, prefer a traditional worship setting, and are confused and disturbed about
the changes that are taking place in their church. And the younger folks, most of whom
probably don't understand the history of your congregation, or that there is a real problem,
are enjoying the new changes because it is closer to their experiences.

First of all, I am a young person, 25, who came to Christ thanks to "contemporary" churches
but I am now part of the home church movement and I do not think I will ever go back to a
regular church setting.
While I think it's nice that the "nonchurched" have a place to come and be introduced to
Christianity, it bothers me greatly to see them come to Christ and then not be challenged to
move on and mature. We are a generation who is used to being entertained...and we expect
nothing less from our church. The leaders of our churches spend a long time on their programs,
on their teams, on their building, and they all look very nice. But this is not what Christ
meant the church to be. I will also not defend the traditionalist setting either...who cares
whether it is loud music or hyms...a short introductory sermon or a detailed hour long one.
The point is that both sides are missing something.

You must decide to change something. Both sides. It will not be easy, but the responsibility
should fall to all of you. For the older crowd, I am sorry that you feel you have lost your
church and congreation. There is a genuine loss there. But will it ever go back to being how
it used to be? Most likely not. The question is, do you move on or do you stay with the new
folks, working with them and HELPING them to mature spiritually? Remember that the church is
not the building, not the songbooks, not any of that stuff. YOU are the church! The rest are
details that can flexible. For the new folks, seek more. There is more to the church and to
your part in it than what you are seeing. Don't follow along blindly. Find your place, and
your gifting, and be a participant, not a spectator.

Some practical thoughts:
1) Get out of your building. Find time to meet in each other's homes and build relationships.
Make it a point to mix generations.
2) Without labeling it Class 101 or 102 or whatever, find someone in your congretion with the
gift of teaching. If you aren't seeing those in-depth times of learning on sunday morning, do
it on another night.
3) Worship: are you willing to compromise? How about a mixture of hyms and contemporary songs?
It CAN be done, and done well!
Write your own songs, and find your own creativity. (90% of the songs we use in our church
come from our own members...not from a songbook or tape!)
There is nothing wrong with music, even loud music, as long as it is our own gift to the Lord,
and comes from our desire to love and praise him, and not just a device to make us feel like
we have entered His presence. Remember that this is OUR gift to HIM, not vice versa.

You guys have got to do something about this division. Don't let it destroy you. Have the
courage to move on if you need to. Even more couragiously, stay if you can. Find out what it
means to be the body of Christ. Help each other mature. Learn that praise and worship is more
than a 15 minute segment of a service...it is something that should encompass what you do
every day.
I wish you all God's best and His healing.

  ===========================
Joe McKnight

Just who is the worst enemy? February 19 2002, 11:18 AM

Chuck is writing about our country, but it applies to our congregations also.

Christians are our own worst Enemy
By Chuck Baldwin
May 8, 2001
Several news reports of late serve to remind me that Christians have no one
to blame but themselves for many (if not most) of the problems plaguing our
country today. In the final analysis, history will record the rise and fall
of the United States in terms relating to the action (and inaction) of its
sizeable Christian population.
For example, the U.S. Marshall who led the government's confiscation of the
Indianapolis Baptist Temple is reported to be a Baptist deacon. The Attorney
General and President of the United States who issued the order to carry out
that confiscation are also outspoken Christians.
Likewise, several professing Christians participated in the government's
bloodletting at Waco, Texas. Professing Christians were among the federal
agents that used tanks, CS gas and machinegun fire to kill old men, women
and children in a manner reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
Further, several Christian churches recently joined homosexual activists for
a "gay pride" parade in Lake Worth, Florida. And a recent newspaper article
reported that as many as a third of all "Christian" young people believe it
is ok for unmarried couples to cohabit.
The common consensus of many (if not most) "Christians" today is that they
will submit to whatever the law and the culture say, regardless of how
unlawful or sinful it may be. Of course, such a philosophy enjoys neither
the approbation of history nor Biblical authority.
It needs to be remembered that the Church was born in a baptism of
resistance to unlawful governmental edicts and to immoral cultural
deteriorations. Simon Peter's clarion call, "We must obey God rather than
man" was heard throughout the churches.
Also understand that it was the reigning government that persecuted,
imprisoned and killed those early Church fathers, not gangsters and outlaws.
In fact, the government itself had become outlaw. But, that didn't keep
those early Christians from paying for their faith and independence with
their lives.
The American story is a similar one. When Ethan Allen and those Green
Mountain Boys captured Fort Ticonderoga, they proclaimed in no uncertain
terms the cry of the American Revolution, "No king, but Jesus." It was
allegiance to God and to God alone that birthed the Christian Church and the
United States of America. However, this spirit is virtually nonexistent
today.
Today, Christians consider their final authority to be not the eternal laws
of God but the evolving laws of men, while morality is determined not by
Biblical injunction but by cultural whim. It is frightening to think just
how far modern "Christians" will go to get along with "the powers that be."
If Biblical characters had behaved like American Christians are behaving
today, we would not have the stories of Moses, Elijah, Daniel or John the
Baptist. And if our Founding Fathers had behaved like our "Christian"
brothers today, neither would we have a nation called The United States of
America.
The thing that American Christians lack today is RESISTANCE. We seem
incapable of resisting evil of any kind. While immorality is destroying our
families and internationalism is destroying our independence, Christians
collectively not only do nothing to resist these Draconian developments, but
also seem more than willing to applaud them.
When looking for a culprit in the story of America's demise, look no further
than to the doorstep of the church. We are our own worst enemy.


  ===========================
Joe McKnight

How did we get to here? February 20 2002, 3:54 PM

After years of patronizing, baby milk sermons from our pulpits, and classroom teaching, we
have lost touch with spiritual reality and no longer have a true understanding of the nature
of God, or our relationship with Him through Christ. Milk sermons do not even scratched the
surface of the significant of the crucifixion. We have no idea of the power of God, Christ,
the Holy Spirit, or the Children of God (We have a form of religion but deny the power). We
twist the scriptures and if we can not twist them enough to feel comfortable then we rip them
out of our bible. We continue to hold fast the roots of our religious traditions set forth by
the Catholic church. There is so much Catholic in our churches of Christ that I have come to
believe if it was not for the Catholics, we would not even have a church today. We practice
and hold fast pagan worship, and shun anything that remotely resizable our true roots: the
Jews (Zechariah 8:23). We truly are the Church age of the Laodiceans! Our churches cry out
“God Bless America”. The state the church is in He can not bless America and He will not bless
His so-called Children, but he will do something with us. What, you do not believe me? Read it
for yourself Rev 3:14.
To blame this on the Elders, preachers, teachers and our cemeteries (seminaries to some), is
to overlook the true roots of our mess. Look in a mirror, it is our fault, the ordinary pew
warmers. We have paid hirelings to meet our responsibilities and then went to sleep. Now, the
hirelings have let the wolves in and they are chewing us up, and we dare ask, “Why is this
happening to us Lord?” God sits in Heaven and Laughs at us. What, you do not believe me? Read
it for yourself, Psalms 2 &37 Proverbs 2:24-33!
Does this can of talk make you mad? I hope so, the Holy Spirit has shown me the LIES that are
taught in the churches and I had accepted (Jeremiah 16:19-21). The wolves and hireling try to
keep me quite and not tell the truth. They will not talk about this because they know I stand
on the truth found in the Word, not their traditions, for their traditions are LIES. If the
church would wake up then the wolves and the hirelings would be out in the cold and not in the
fold. The reason the fold will not wake up; THEY ARE COMFORTABLE, and do not want anybody to
mess with the box they have God crammed into.
I want to thank Concern Members of Madison for the opportunity to get the true word out. It is
still up to you as to what you do with it, but know this; the world is six thousand years old
and it is time for the Sabbath Kingdom, as for me and my house, fire the hireling and kill the
wolves, for we will serve YAHWEH!

TO GOD BE THE GLORY
Joe McKnight


  ===========================
Jrobb


2 camps; both wrong February 21 2002, 2:07 PM

What it comes down to is there are two camps. One wants things to change and are willing to
implement the change no matter who it hurts. The other wants things to stay the same and is
willing to condemn everyone who wants change to protect their own comfort level. Either way
both are so selfish they are willing to sacrafice their brethren to get their own way.
Consider <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-
bin/bible?passage=Romans+14&version=NASB&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english"
target=new>Romans 14,15</a>.

P.S. Gossip is a sin too.

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Response to "2 CAMPS; BOTH WRONG" February 21 2002, 10:56 PM

WRONG!

What it comes down to is:

(1) The camp that wants things changed is both willing and COERCIVE in implementing the
CHANGES no matter whom it hurts, no matter whom it causes to leave and find another
congregation, no matter that it causes division, no matter how it leads to a series of
serious, erroneous and unscriptural doctrinal matters which are JUST beginning to surface. Be
reminded that handclapping is not so much a doctrinal issue as it being an annoyance to senior
Christians who want to worship in reverence and in the spirit of proper understanding. To
certain worshipers, it is probably more annoying than hearing several cell phones ringing in
the midst of a prayer or of singing. Handclapping? Certainly we can do without. But that's not
the issue until it's done purposely to irritate and disrupt others. It becomes an issue when
it is used to change things for the sake of change and for the Saddleback (you should be
familiar with that term by now) seekers and sympathizers to accomplish their mission. You must
not be aware, evidently, of the more serious changes they plan on implementing that would
transform a church group to something almost entirely different and opposite of what it was
identifiably originally.

(2) The other camp is not condemning everyone (the individuals) who are responsible for
implementing changes. Nor is it condemning the option to change or change itself. This camp is
condemning, however, the ways and means by which changes are being conducted -- by coercion
and without warning and without the consent of the entire membership. It is also condemning
certain types of changes that are being effected (put into action). This camp simply wants to
preserve the simplicity of the gospel and the pureness of God's truth according to the
scriptures. In this way, this camp is selfish. (In other words, leave us alone. If you really
want to build something, start from scratch and do not disrupt. Don't impose your ideas on
others who don't want them.) By the way, I agree with you that gossip is a sin, but seeking
the truth and warning others of threatening dangers is not gossip and therefore not a sin.

So, which side are you on? If you're undecided, that creates another camp, a third one.



  ===========================
Jrobb


Response to Response to "2 CAMPS; BOTH WRONG" February 22 2002, 11:03 AM

Mr. Cruz,

Thank you for your response. It proves my point better than I ever could.

Romans 14 charges that on matters of opinion the two sides are to do different things. The
side that sees the things as permissable are not to do them if they are to cause a brother to
stumble. The side that sees them as impermissable is not judge or condemn those that see it as
permissable. Please do not tell me that those people are not being judged on this site.
Clearly when the elders are divided into "5 Godly and 10 Not so Godly" judgement is taking
place.

Now you may say that the other side is not fufilling their duty by causing division with what
they find permissable and you would be right. But that does not free you from your obligation
to not judge them. Mom always said, "Two wrongs don't make a right".

You stated, "This camp is condemning, however, the ways and means by which changes are being
conducted -- by coercion and without warning and without the consent of the entire
membership." I would appreciate any Biblical reference where the elders are charged with
obtaining the consent of the entire membership. I certainly can find many where the membership
is to submit to the elders.

Consider the parable of the weeds. Matt 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man
which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that
we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the
reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather
the wheat into my barn.

Gossip:
I pulled this from another thread on this website. It is under the heading "EMAIL RESPONSE!".
It is signed ConcernedMembers. If this is not gossip then we need to remove the word from the
dictionary because it no longer has any meaning.

"I was talking to a member of a family that owns a business in Madison a couple weeks ago.
They knew that I was a Madison member, and said that one of their customers had made the
comment that, "We're waiting for all the "OLD FOLKS" to DIE OFF, so we can make some changes
at Madison Church of Christ"

I was actually astonished that any Church member would say such a thing.
I asked what was the name of the person that said that, and they said [------] [----]."


  ===========================
Joe McKnight

One shooting in the Dark February 22 2002, 5:23 PM

mr. jim
Well you shoot again and missed again. You need to check your ammo. I Cor 5:11-13. We are to
judge within. ouch!
I still say "Come out of Her my People"

  ===========================
Jrobb


Re: One shooting in the dark February 22 2002, 6:32 PM

I Cor 5:11-13
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother
but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With
such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those
inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

It seems to me that Paul has listed very specifically the sin he is talking about judging. As
(I think) you infer about that there is no room for human opinion about these being sin. And
if you feel that there are people at MCOC engaged in any of these I could see where Paul's
"judgement within" would be appropriate.

But so far I have seen no accusation of any of those. To me it seems that Romans 14 is
particulary applicable because it deals with matters of opinion. After reading Mr. Cruz's
letter it seemed that most of his complaints were things he just did not like. He did not like
the change of the heading on the worship guide. He did not like the official job title of the
preachers assistant. He did not like Mr. Keith Lancaster being referred to as the Worship
Leader. He does not like the term Praise Team or Seeking. He said that a visitor told him they
found the second service distracting. Also another member told him they did not like the
phrase "...and the church says, Amen!'. Does not understand the lifting of hands. Does not
care for the hand clapping. The covenant of membership is surely different, but, how awful is
it to commit in writing to inviting the unchurched. Or attending faithfully. If homsexuality
or adultry were being advocated then I could see an application of I Cor 5:11-13.

I just don't see that any of these run in contradiction to the Bible, save for one way. If
they are forcing a situation where people see these as wrong and are being forced to
participate against their own conscience then it is wrong. (Romans 14) That is what looks like
is happening. In which case they should stop. But there are also requirements for those that
think these changes should not happen.


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Response to "2 CAMPS; BOTH WRONG" February 23 2002, 2:02 AM

My earlier response hardly proves your point as you claim. We're dealing with the impact of
opinions on scriptural issues. Let me point out to you that in matters of opinion, anyone can
form one and is entitled to do so. But that doesn't give one permission to impose such upon
others. On the other hand, in dealing with scriptural or doctrinal issues, the Bible should be
the only source for answers. And we can simply do that by one of three things: (1) by direct
command, (2) by example or (3) by necessary inference. Outside of that would be a matter of
opinion. For instance, "to obey God rather than man" is a command. With "inference" the key
word is "NECESSARY," without which would make it simply an opinion or logic. Another instance
is that besides the fact by definition in Greek that baptism truly means "immersion," Jesus'
baptism, which was not explicitly stated in Matthew 3:16, forces us to conclude that it was by
immersion because he "went up straightway out of the water."

I hope you agree with me that as we are commanded to worship God in spirit and in truth (John
4:24) or that we are to sing and make melody in our hearts to the Lord (Ephesians 5:19) or
that we are to pray and sing with the spirit and with the understanding (1 Cor. 14:15), there
is no command or example to use musical instruments in New Testament worship nor can the use
of them be necessarily inferred. (By New Testament, I mean for Christians, in contrast to
God's followers in Old Testament times when they offered animal sacrifices and tithed and were
in the patriarchal age or under the Mosaic law.) The use of instruments is a perfect example
of an issue dealing with "opinion" or what we "feel" or "think" is permissible (according to
you). So it is not a question of what is permissible. It is not a question of judging or
condemning those that see whether or not something is permissible. It is rather a question of
what is with or without scriptural authority.

When I mentioned “unscriptural doctrinal matters which are JUST beginning to surface,” I meant
just that. Do you know what’s coming in order to accomplish the mission of the Saddleback
supporters based on the experiences of other congregations that have fallen into their trap?
(Of course, theirs is a program of gradual transformation designed to victimize and divide a
congregation.) Beginning with handclapping and swaying to the music as in a rock concert, with
the praise team that mainly sings for and to the congregation, with shorter sermons and longer
testimonials and stories hardly related to the observance of the communion - which have now
been introduced subtly - there are much more significant and more serious changes that can be
expected that will eventually transform the Madison congregation to what it wasn’t not so many
years ago. It is not even a question of what’s traditional. Throw that word out the window.

Before long, there will be a strong support for women deacons, for elders to be “labeled” as
“deacons,” for a minister who is not an elder to be labeled as a pastor (which according to
the scriptures means the same as “bishop” or “elder”) and addressed as “Reverend.” Then,
musical instruments or a band in worship and possibly observance of the Lord’s Supper monthly
or quarterly, signing a membership covenant, the Levitical law of tithing, the “supernatural”
experience of speaking in tongues and the direct influence of the Holy Spirit and “miracles” …
all characteristics of the charismatic movement or the community church movement.

Unless the elders get all this straightened out as soon as possible, there won’t be any longer
a “church of Christ” in Madison, Tennessee, that we’ve known for several years. The problem
began with the decision by the elders to conform and be accommodating to certain secular
elements. We know that they have a major responsibility to God as shepherds over a
congregation of the church of our Lord. You simply cannot deny the fact that there has been
division among the elders themselves. This must not be so. This is a BIG NO-NO to God.

It is not the intention of the website to condemn the elders who’ve decided to compromise and
succumb to the will of the Saddleback seekers and the charismatic influences - only God can
make that judgment. But how else could you categorize their “actions” that have caused the
very detestable division in the church? “Not so godly” is a phrase put mildly. Wonder how God
could possibly identify those that have knowingly or unknowingly caused the division of His
church? Yes, the members need to be informed and the elders as shepherds are to attend to the
spiritual needs of the flock and not make careless decisions.

Here are the scriptures you asked about. Just as Christ is the good shepherd, “the good
shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” … the good shepherd knows his sheep … “there shall be
one fold” (John 10:11-16); shepherds “keeping watch over their flock” (Luke 2:8). The elders
of the church (Acts 20:17) were called to “take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the
flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which
he hath purchased with his own blood … that … shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not
sparing the flock … of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away
disciples after them…." (Acts 20:28-30). I agree completely with you that the members are to
“submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account.… (Hebrews
13:17). The question is that … have the elders done their part in contacting and bringing back
those folks that have left and gone somewhere else? In the first place, their decision to let
the forces of the community movement seekers take over this body of believers was a BIG, BIG
mistake! Again, God detests division in the church. So, speaking of “consent,” let me ask you
of Bible references that would justify their actions or decisions that do not conform to the
scriptures? The remark about waiting for the “old folks” to die off, said or not said, is not
far from the truth. Many senior Christians have left to fellowship with other Christians in
other places. Do you blame them?

Please let me remind you that there’s more to this nightmare than handclapping. Just wait, if
no action is taken soon, when the Madison congregation will be no more. It might as well be
annexed to the neighboring Cornerstone Church and lose its own identity


  ===========================
JRobb


Response to Response to "2 CAMPS; BOTH WRONG" February 25 2002, 10:41 AM

Dear Mr. Cruz,

Let me say right off the bat that I appreciate you your well thought out and obviously heart
felt response. It sheds a lot of light on where you are coming from.

You may be right about what is coming. Obviously no one can know the future, but, we also
learn from the past. I hope, as I am sure you do, that your fears do not come to be true.

As far as elders go, I basically fall back on the old military axiom, "You show me a bad unit
and I'll show you a bad unit leader". In my experience there are very few of these conflicts
that could not have been avoided with some deft leadership.

As far as what takes place during the worship service. I would not challange any of what is
listed as examples of what is to take place during the service. It seems to me that the Bible
is very specific where it wants to be. Many sins are listed as flat out wrong. The listing of
the old law is so specific it's almost commical. I think you would agree with me that in
comparison to those things the NT worship service is fairly vague. Now I think I hear you
saying that you don't want to involve anything in the worship service that is not authorized
by command, example, or necessary inference. I would submit that there are many things that
most Churches of Christ do that are not even inferred. Sermon notes, song books; I am sure we
could make a pretty good list if we wanted to. But we have done them over the years, most
people (now) think they facilitate a better worship service. Be careful about assigning motive
to what other people do during the worship service. What may seem showy to you may be very
sincere to another.

All that I would ask is that in your efforts to set things right you would remember the second
greatest commandmnt. "Love your neighbor as yourself". If you were "in the wrong" would this
be the way you would want someone else to handle it? I understand the point of this website
but it comes across to me as very divisive. But that is just my opinion. I think from your
responses you really want some resolution to the issue.

I wish you the best. The issue will be in my prayers. I hope that the restoring of the body
will come.

JRobb

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Response#3 to Mr. Robb's "Both Camps" February 25 2002, 8:12 PM

Mr. Robb:

It is obvious that while you claim neutrality, you really are on one camp's side. The only
admission so far from you has been that if something is being done by coercion and which
causes disruption that it should be stopped. Have you spoken or suggested this to the elders?

So far, you haven't really pointed out the main points that I've tried to present from all of
my responses, even from the letters that I've written to the elders. For example, when you
responded to one of Joe McKnight's emails, you indicated that "most of his complaints were
things he just did not like...." I would encourage you to reread the letter(s). You should be
aware that the trivial things like the change of the heading on the worship guide, Keith being
referred to as "worship leader," and a host of other trivia, were examples of the part of the
gradual transformation that the community church movement is up to accomplishing. And let me
tell you that I've been consistent in bringing that to everybody's attention. The letter(s) to
the elders should have made it a point -- if you had really paid attention -- that there were
others things in their plan, some of which may or may not be carried out (but I think you get
the point).

Another reason why I believe you really haven't analyzed my remarks is that just now you
mentioned some really poor examples (the use of song books, sermon notes, etc., and I might
add to your list ... bringing your Bible to class or bringing a pen to write notes with) to
justify your point on what I mentioned as necessary inference. I'm somewhat embarrassed for
you bringing up those examples. Since you did bring them up, let me say that I gather from
your logic that you are trying to justify the use of musical instruments (which I used as my
example on the "necessary inference" factor to prove that their use is not scripturally
justifiable. If that's what you believe (that musical instruments are permissible, according
to you), then, I have no control over that. Then, you are not in agreement with the elders'
statement on their commitment to a cappella music (and I'm glad that at least I hope that they
will and do adhere to that commitment). So, please don't even think about adding more items to
your list, which by the way, has nothing to do with the idea of making something obligatory in
worship. Furthermore, (1) handclapping, whether right or wrong, is disruptive to certain
senior Christians, and is, therefore, divisive; (2) the praise team, while its members may be
sincere in their efforts, is along with its musical leader, does more than that -- they
perform and they entertain (you would think that the praise team should be the whole
congregation itself, not a selected number of volunteers, and I must admit that I sometimes
fall into the habit of just being entertained by the beautiful blend of their voices to the
point where I just want to listen and be performed to, but I think you get my point); (3) and
there are more things that I don't have the space and time to enumerate. So, it's not all a
matter of sincerity. A lot of the people in the denominational and secular worlds are sincere
in what they're doing. There are also examples of sincere acts by people mentioned in the
Bible, and these acts weren't acceptable to God. And to outperform God's will for man is
something God detests as well. So, while your advice to me is to be careful about assigning
motives to what other people do during worship service, which to the best of my knowledge is
my personal opinion based on what I know the New Testament teachings may not support, my
advice to you is to be careful about outperforming God's will by fostering ideas or options
that your human mind thinks is "permissible" by your own admission.

Just because I present items in light of what the Scriptures specify for man to do, as well as
items in light of what the Bible is silent about, doesn't mean that I do not love my neighbor.
Quite to the contrary. I believe we all should play it safely as the saying goes. Should I say
that those who insist on handclapping, whether or not done intentionally, while it is
disrupting to others really love their neighbor when they are causing certain senior
Christians to seek fellowship somewhere else?

Lastly, this website is something that I'm glad is available. I firmly believe that the truth
about the community movement takeover should be made known to the brotherhood. I cannot
emphasize enough the point -- and this has been my consistent message all along -- that the
churches of Christ should be made aware of not following the same kind of mistake that this
eldership has made. I strongly feel, that if we don't make any attempt to thwart this
disruption and takeover that the churches of Christ (Romans 16:16) will be no more. The
congregations will then become identifiably charismatic and community movement oriented; then,
how different will we be from the "Pentecostal" groups. Is this what you want to happen? If
you do, I don't think it would make any difference if you joined them.

Sincerely,
Donnie Cruz

  ===========================
Joe McKnight

Donny Cruz: Take heart Brother. February 26 2002, 9:56 AM

Dear brother Cruz:
You and the other Soldiers of Christ take heart. When the other side comes at you with this
"your causing division" trash, remember the words of another great Soldier of God (prophet)
Isaiah the Tisbite. Not me sir, YOU!
I Kings 18: 17-18 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, thou he
that troubleth Israel? 18 And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy
father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed
Baalim.

Remember, this is not the frist time Satan and his agents have caused this much trouble in the
Church and it is going to get worst, but it will not be long now. And life will be as God
intended it to be for 1000 years, and then the New Heaven and a New Jerusalem. All that I have
read about it in the Bible: it will be worth the fight. TAKE HEART, BE BRAVE.

TO GOD BE THE GLORY
Joe McKnight
"peace to Israel, LORD come quickly

  ===========================
Keneth Sublett


One Side: One is right February 22 2002, 1:30 PM

Nothing cuts worse than the old Romans 14 switchblade.
Knowing some background you understand that there were two cultural backgrounds in Rome which
fit Paul's discourse.

First, the Orphics were the only VEGETARIANS in Rome. Their background, like at Corinth,
Ephesus and Colossae was higly addicted to charismatic music which brought on prophesying or
speaking in tongues or even the magical barbarian minor tongues.

Second, the Dionysics were meat-eaters and wine-drinkers. They were identically addicted to
the "praise crase" in the belief that instumental music brought the gods into their presence
as proven by something like tongues.

Consistent with Paul's other messages confused as "musical," in Romans 15 (just after Romans
14) Paul defined a system of unity based on church as synagogue and not a musical, pagan
worship center. In Rome they were to speak to one another with "what has been written" and the
unity would be proven by glorifying God "with one mouth."

In Ephesians Paul defined the only resource as the "Spirit" which Jesus defined as His Word
(John 6:63). The command was NOT to SING but to speak or preach. The singing and melody would
be in the spirit because either in its external form carries the idea of abuse.

In Colossians the resource was "the Word of Christ." Historians and Thomas Campbell understood
that you can never have unity when church ceases to be "school of the Bible" or synagogue and
becomes a pagan worship center.

Always remember: Romans 15 comes after Romans 14.

Kenneth Sublett

  ===========================
Joe McKnight


Proof reader wanted February 28 2002, 11:43 PM

I have been writing a small book "Church of Christer's Handbook on End Times". If you would
help me by proof reading it and then give me some suggestion I would appreciate it. Just e-
mail me and I will send you a copy.
Thank you
Joe McKnight

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: From Anonymous -- Who Are You, Donnie Cruz? April 8 2002, 1:21 AM

======================================================
E M A I L from A N O N Y M O U S
======================================================

Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 3:50 PM
To: Donnie.Cruz
Cc: ConcernedMembers@webmailstation.com
Subject: Re: Anonymous posts on Concerned Members

You have asked who I am. I have sent you a message that I signed. However the moderator of
this group (whoever that is) has decided to take my name off that message, so I will remain
“Anonymous” until you start telling the truth about who you are and why you want to cause
trouble. I will continue to respond to your notes. I don’t care if you post it public or not.
It’s only intended for you anyway.

If you have been at Madison for so long, do you mind telling what ministries you have worked
in.

I was not raised in the CofC. I really think you have done more damage to the church with this
site than you can imagine. Non CofC people would not want to get into a church that has all
the problems you have dreamed up.

So I end with this question: Do you really believe you are obeying the “Great Commission” with
the content of the web site.

Donnie, My prayer is you find another church that you can worship in.

Would you sent a copy of this to Joe, Larry, David, Ken, and Bobby.

==================================================
R E S P O N S E
==================================================

Dear Anonymous:

I am attaching your personal e-mail to me, as I’m sure you will be delighted to be heard.

To tell you the truth, I really don’t care whether or not you continue to remain anonymous. By
the tone of your messages, you have already concluded (erroneously) that the ConcernedMembers
website is responsible for the upheaval at Madison, as well as its contributing writers. Let
me remind you to go over the chronological events posted here as well as your own agency’s
historical records and do some serious analysis. Validate the facts for yourself that the
change agents had been in action long before this website was even conceived.

If you were only interested in the real truth, rather than posting messages of attacks like
you’ve stated in your e-mail above and at other times, there would be no reason at all why the
moderator would treat you any differently. The moderator would do the same thing to me or
anyone else, if circumstances warranted my posting to be directed to that same den. I’ve been
really careful about articles that I write and how I treat other people because I feel that I
am no exception as to what the moderator might determine about my messages.

Why are you personally attacking me? Your words: “It’s only intended for you anyway.” Plus you
acting like God about my having to tell you what ministries I have worked in. Plus your prayer
for me to find another church. Plus the damage I’ve done and all the problems I have dreamed
up. What a tall order for me from someone who refuses to identify himself!

It is not for you to know when someone is involved in providing financial support to a needy
church overseas. It is not for you to know when someone is involved in helping a ministerial
student overseas to achieve a good education. It is not for you to know when someone is
involved in providing help to other people outside the Madison locality. Perhaps, your
viewpoint is different in regard to ministries where other members can give you credit.

Since you weren’t raised in the church of Christ, and you did not specify where, anyone could
assume that as being the Belmont Church (perhaps?) or Cornerstone Church (perhaps?) or Christ
Temple (perhaps?). Well, I guess it shouldn’t matter since you are so involved in the change
agents’ activities anyway. You defend their cause more than you defend the cause of the
unadulterated gospel of Christ. I agree with you on one thing: that non-church of Christ
“people would not want to get into a church that has all the problems” that the change agents
have dreamed up.

Yes, I strongly believe that this website is fulfilling the “Great Commission” with its search
for and revelation of the truth - the truth in order to warn others of the risks and dangers
of experiencing what the Madison congregation has experienced so far. Yes, I believe I am
obeying the “Great Commission” by affiliating myself with a group that is seeking the truth
and showing the truth to others. My question to you is this: Are you obeying the same by
continuing to enforce your program against other people’s will and by continuing to divide the
church?

I do not understand what your prayer is for me. I am not sure what you meant by “would not
want to get into a church” or about “another church that you can worship in.” Do you mean a
building to worship in? I didn’t think a church was a building. Let me just point out that a
person who is baptized to become a Christian is “added to the church,” and does not “join” the
church. You know, the secular world even understands the freedom that a person has in this
country. So my advice to you is keep praying for me “to find another church” for as long as I
can predict, I’ll be around for a while in this community. You may just rightly apply the
instruction to “pray without ceasing.”

Yes, I would be glad to send a copy of your e-mail and my response to Joe, Larry, David, Ken
and Bobby through this website. Amazing! You know all your subjects!


  ===========================
James D. Kisner


I am saddened! August 21 2002, 12:04 PM

I am not a member of the Madison Church of Christ, but I fondly remember watching the old
"Amazing Grace Bible Class" as a child when Ira North was the minister there. He was such a
great man and Madison was such a great congregation. Madison was the prime example of church
growth for many years. Praise God for that.

Having said all of that, I now want to address the current issue of division at Madison (and
at many other churches). This divisiveness, regardless of who may have started it (change
agents or concerned members), is only being propogated by this site. Not only is it being seen
by Madison members, it is also being viewed by members of other churches of Christ across the
world and by the outside world. It is bound to engender strife and suspicion in other churches
that would otherwise be peaceful. I am concerned that this site will become much like many of
the brotherhood periodicals, forcing people to take sides and ostricizing those who refuse.
And, that flies in the face of what Ira North stood for. It seems to me I remember hearing him
say that at Madison everyone has their say, but no one person or group always has their way.
Though that is not scripture, it seems to me to be good common sense.

I am 39 years old and have watched the church suffer through so many controversies (i.e. the
Holy Spirit, Crossroadism, Translations, etc.). I have also worshipped in traditional and
contemporary churches and churches that had both styles, as Madison does. My own observation,
and that from seeing so much division in the church, is that all of this doesn't stem from a
concern for scripture, but rather a desire from both sides to push an agenda. I think all of
you need to wake up and realize that worship is about who JESUS is and not about whether we
clap, sing, play, stomp, hum, etc. Incidentally, the Bible does say sing, not hum. Yet, I've
been at Madison in the more "traditional" days, and heard the beautiful song "His Grace
Reaches Me," sung by the congregation. While the song is sung by the sopranos, the other parts
have "oohs" and "ahhs." Though "oohs" and "ahhs" are vocal, they are not singing, neither do
they "teach and admonish." What's the difference in that and clapping? Just a thought.

I realize that anyone can come back with arguments, but does it have to be that way? We can
argue about worship style until the judgement day and not ever solve the issue. It seems that
there has to be some give and take on both sides. Here I state my position clearly that
scriptural worship is not a matter of the style of song we sing or whether there is a 15
minute or 30 minute sermon. Neither is it whether we clap our hands or not. But, again, if the
situation at Madison is typical of church division, and from reading the comments on this
site, I am sure it is, then the real issue is refusal to give in on both sides. Each side can
take the Bible as a proof text (and you've done a great job at that!), but so what? That type
of thinking has done nothing but produce more strife and discord. Maybe what everyone needs to
do is go back to the cross of Jesus, and remember why we are where we are. We are in the
church of the Lord because he has redeemed us from our sin with his own blood. How sick it
must make our Lord and Savior to see his people fighting over such a trite issue as whether we
sing "Victory in Jesus" or "Shout to the Lord!" If the truth be know, both sides have erred in
this wrangle. I am afraid that what is happening now, is that once again the churches of
Christ are fracturing into yet two more fellowships, the "clappers" and the "non-clappers."
How truly rediculous and disgraceful this is to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

James D. Kisner

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: I am saddened! (by James D. Kisner) August 21 2002, 12:04 PM August 21 2002, 6:32 PM

Re: I am saddened! (by James D. Kisner) August 21 2002, 12:04 PM

Dear James:

Your correspondence is appreciated very much.

You seemed to project neutrality in your post, but in the final analysis, it doesn’t seem to
matter to you how much doctrinal corruption there is that is being introduced into what we’ve
known and believed to be the New Testament church of our Lord. And on the basis of the notion
that “it doesn’t matter” to you and others, being affiliated with any of the hundreds of
denominational churches in the world shouldn’t matter, either. If that is what you really
believe and if that is your preference, then, you are entitled to that. But please don’t
misjudge the objective of this site, i.e., of exposing the truth about trends and movements
that are causing havoc in many congregations of the church of our Lord. I dare you to name one
congregation in which division has been created and caused by this website, and I can name you
one that has prevented division because of this website.

I would encourage you and others of the same viewpoint to look at the BIG picture. We are not
dealing only with the handclapping-thumping sound effects of the praise teams. There are many
more important issues that, as you’ve well stated, do “STEM FROM A CONCERN FOR SCRIPTURE.”
Significantly enough, one issue leads to another, and this is where “propagation” is occurring
- NOT that this website is propagating strife and confusion. When worship intended to be of
reverence is transformed into excellence in musical performance and entertainment, when the
office of the eldership is abused and its role changed, when we are now to expect the Holy
Spirit to have DIRECT influence on us and to experience the power of performing miracles and
speaking in tongues, when the Old Testament law of tithing for the Levitical priesthood is
being enforced upon N.T. Christians in lieu of liberal giving, and many, many other issues -
then, it is necessary for us to be alarmed. What good is the church of our Lord, then, if we
are becoming experts at doing charismatic imitation and flowing with the current tide of the
Community Church Movement? You know, the church of Christ is only hundreds of years BEHIND in
these matters. Are we playing catch-up?

We are here to warn other congregations to avoid the same pitfalls that some churches have
already experienced. Yes, as you said, we all should be “afraid that what is happening now is
that once again the churches of Christ are fracturing into yet two more fellowships.”
Actually, several more!!! But please do not hold this website accountable. This website began
to exist only (and much later) because of things that should not have been happening in the
first place. Can you name any NEW and strange doctrine that this website has introduced to the
church? But I can name several doctrines without scriptural basis that have caused division in
the church.

James, we need your fervent prayer so that the church will grow and not divide. We all need to
be more knowledgeable of what the Bible teaches so that we CAN know when false doctrines are
introduced and when proponents of these false doctrines infiltrate the church!

In His service,

Donnie Cruz


  ===========================
James D. Kisner


are we trying to be charismatic? August 21 2002, 10:33 PM

Dear Brother Don,

I have visited many charismatic churches, and I will tell you that there is a vast difference
in them and ANY church of Christ I have ever been in. Oh sure, there is clapping, and there
are testimonies in the charismatic/pentecostal churches, but those are about the only
similarities between the two groups. Charismatics are based almost totally in emotion, the
"feel good" stuff, while I have never, ever been in a church of Christ that even hints of that
(though I am sure there may be one or two). There is a difference in what is going on at
Madison and other churches of Christ and emotionalism. I have looked at Madison's website and
read The Marcher and other parts of the sight, including their mission statement and core
beliefs, and I have found nothing that even hints of abandoning Biblical teaching on anything,
including the work of the Holy Spirit. As you well know the mission and medium of the Spirit
has been debated for decades among church of Christ people. I know a lot of outstanding men,
present and past, who believe in the direct working of the Spirit, and not a single one of
them speaks in tongues, has prophetic untterances, words of knowledge, nor any other of the
charismatic gifts. I will say here however, that those of us who advocate a more contemporary
worship style must be careful that we don't let our emotions BECOME the basis for our worship.
Nor should we "work the crowd." For example, when I lead worship I never make people feel
forced to do what they don't feel comfortable doing, such as clapping, raising hands, saying
Amen, etc. Although that does happen in the church where I am worship minister, it comes from
the worshipper and not from me. Neither do I discourage such (nor do our elders - they are the
sheperds, and as such, the leaders of the flock - not me).

It has always amazed me that in the church of Chris on a typical Sunday evening we could have
a worship time, begun with a song or prayer, have more singing, and a sermon, end with a
prayer, then have a Christian College (or other)choir sing for us and that's okay, because
it's not worship. Yet if that same group sung the same song(s) during the time between the
opening and closing prayer, all of a sudden it became sinful, as if worship begin and ends
with a song and a prayer. Is it not worship to listen to a choir sing? Or, for example, I've
heard many preachers read words to hymns during their sermon, yet, if they sung those same
words, it became unauthorized. I fail to find in the Bible the rationale for that type
thinking. Ephesians 5:19 calls singing "speaking to one another." What's the difference. I am
not trying to change your mind about this issue; I would, however, like for those who hold
your views (and many in my own physical family do), to consider that there are other ways of
thinking about the scriptures, and that those of us who advocate a more contemporary approach
to worship are not the heretics that many portray us to be.

As I said in my earlier post, I have worshipped most of my life in churches that would be
considered fairly traditional. And, I have worked on the staff of two traditional churches;
and yes, the elders knew my feelings on worship, and I am still welcomed in both of them. I
never caused a problem over these issues. I believed in clapping, shouting, and raising hands
long before it ever became a glint in most of the church of Christ worship leaders' eyes. But,
one thing I refused to do is cause dissension with my beliefs. That doesn't mean I didn't
express my views, and it doesn't mean I didn't reason together with those whom I differ. I
simply respected the word of God regarding elders' authority and likewise the unity of the
church. I am quite sure that there are people on the contemporary side who will read this and
to them I'd say, "Be certain that what you are doing is in a spirit of love for the Lord and
His church. Don't be guilty of driving a wedge." To you, Brother Don and those who are more
traditional, I would say basically the same thing. We can all say what we want, and place
blame where we will, but deep down, every last one of us knows that the seeds of division are
rooted deeply in the hearts of people on both sides of ANY division and that wrong is done on
both sides. There is unnecessary name calling being done on this sight by BOTH sides.
Likewise, harsh, unkind words are being spoken by BOTH sides. Untold damage has been and is
being done by BOTH sides, both on and off of this site. Say what you please, I know the
ingredients of a church split, and you will never convince me that BOTH sides are not to
blame.

As to tithing, I have been taught all my life in the church of Christ that 10% is a good place
to begin in our giving, since that was what the Jews did and we are to exceed the Jews in our
righteousness. I have tithed, and then some, for many years, and I can testify that you cannot
out give the Lord. I guess that may put me in the camp with the tithers, but if it does, it's
not because I mixed the Old and New Laws. It's because I do study the Bible and have come to
understand God's grace extended to us in Jesus Christ and how our response in giving (money)
is an indicator of our faith in Him. That probably sounds wishy-washy, but in all my years of
tithing, I have never been want for anything. God has blessed me beyond measure, and that
blessing has come in proportion to my giving of time, energy, and yes, the tithe.

I would challenge both sides to re-examine their positions, to be certain that everything that
has been done has been in a loving manner. One of the seven things God hates is the person(s)
who sows discord among brethren. I can only imagine the tears being shed from the portals of
Glory right now over the situation at Madison and other churches, and the celebration coming
from the pits of Hell. Surely this isn't what God wants.

No, I don't know of any churches that have split because of this sight in particular. However,
I do know of many churches that have been split over what has been written in periodicals in
the brotherhood. The church I grew up in is an example. They are a rural Arkansas church that
still worships like they did 50 years ago. But, a few years ago, they became suspicious of
their preacher because of his views on the Holy Spirit (he's NOT charismatic in the least),
based on what they read in a church of Christ periodical. That peaceful church ran him off and
with him about 40 of the members. Those 40 members went out to another church that worships
the same way and teaches the same doctrine as my home church does, yet to this day they have
NOTHING to do with each other. All over what was implied in a God forsaken brotherhood
periodical. No, I can't prove and don't want to prove that this site will cause peaceful
churches to divide, but wait and see. I believe it will. I hope not, but I know what the by
product of words and discussions like this sight is - DIVISION! I would beg all of you, on
both sides, please COOL IT. If you have to part company, then do so, but don't drag the whole
brotherhood (and the many unchurched people who may see this site) through it.

Thank you for listening to me. As I said, I have family members who disagree with me on these
issues, but my prayer is that this won't be the issue that, like the instrument one hundred
years ago, splits the acappella churches of Christ into yet two more factions. Surely unity
among God's people is more important than taking sides.

In hope,

James Kisner

  ===========================
Kevin

We must worship in our own language August 22 2002, 1:31 PM

I have a problem worshipping with hymns. Oh, it's not that God is different than he was in the
times when most of the old hymns were written. He doesn't change. However, those old hymns
were written mostly in the 1600's-1800's and they were a reflection of the their times. That
was how the people in that time and place chose to worship God.

Today, we don't need to go back to the old times and use their tools (hymns) that aided them
in worship. We need to express our worship to God in ways that are relevant to us, and
scripturally sound.

We are called to reach the lost, in order to do that we must remain biblically based and
culturally relevant. Let's allow people to worship in ways that really open up their heart to
God. What is so wrong with that!

  ===========================
James Kisner


AMEN!!! August 22 2002, 2:25 PM

I appreciate what you have said, Kevin. We don't have to sing the ancient hymns in order for
people to worship. I myself love the old hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God," by Martin
Luther, and I have used it in worship in conjunction with the contemporary "Mighty Is Our
God!" Both of these songs express the same sentiment in different ways and for people of
different age brackets. Maybe there might be a way to infuse both into our contemporary
services?

Thank you for your thoughtfulness! God bless.


  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


re: We must worship in our own language August 22 2002, 5:25 PM

Kevin,
The Title of your post in very interesting. I am not trying to be contradictory, just
interested.

John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in Spirit and Truth."

What does this verse mean?





  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: We must worship in our own language (by Kevin) August 22 2002, 1:31 PM August 23 2002,
11:29 AM

Re: We must worship in our own language (by Kevin) August 22 2002, 1:31 PM

Kevin,

Which one or ones of these random statements relate to why “we must worship in our own
language”:

--- I thought we were already doing that … worshiping in English (or in the native language of
someone in another country).

--- We are to admonish and teach one another, and SINGING is only ONE of the ways to
accomplish that; therefore, the MESSAGE doesn’t change regardless of the LANGUAGE in which it
is expressed. And we sing psalms and H-Y-M-N-S and spiritual songs! Do you still have a
problem with hymns?

--- Your implication is that “contemporary” songs should not include HYMNS, since you would
have problem with HYMNS just the same.

--- HYMNS are a problem to you because most of them contain these words: thee, thy, thou,
etc.; and if they are, what do you think of some contemporary songs that contain such words
also?

--- Writers of the earlier centuries have a different set of “human” emotions from that of
contemporary writers - keeping in mind that the hymns that the earlier writers wrote were
contemporary to them at the time.

--- You are convinced that the hymns of the earlier centuries were a reflection of their times
(moods, emotions, environmental settings) rather than a reflection of the message of the
gospel, as it is intended to teach and admonish.

--- You are convinced that the “praise” songs of this contemporary age are a reflection of its
own times (moods, emotions, environmental settings) rather than a reflection of the message of
the gospel, as it is intended to teach and admonish.

There are several more statements that can be made relative to your topic of discussion. But
the statements above would do well enough to evaluate your stand or feeling as to why you
“have a problem worshipping with hymns.”


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: are we trying to be charismatic? (by James D. Kisner) August 21 2002, 10:33 PM August 23
2002, 2:16 AM

Re: are we trying to be charismatic? (by James D. Kisner) August 21 2002, 10:33 PM

Dear brother James:

Thank you for your response. I had wondered about your position on a number of issues,
although I was aware of your conciliatory plea. I had also wondered about your role in your
home congregation and, in fact, about the church of your affiliation. I could only perceive
and draw my own conclusions then, but I’m really glad that you have now clearly stated your
case relative to these matters. Too, I have a better idea now than before of where you’re
coming from.

As the contemporary contributors to this website have often stated, it’s best for folks who
are not (or no longer) members of the Madison congregation to experience first hand the kinds
of things that are going on at the gathering by actually being there -- in order for them to
express a more accurate assessment of such matters. Frankly, your reliance on The Marcher and
on Madison’s website for information does not entirely and clearly define the issues that have
brought on controversies. Behind the mission statement and core beliefs are many “seemingly”
hidden ISSUES. Whether one is for or against any or all of the issues, the fact remains that
they EXIST. Articles in The Marcher have dealt with these various issues -- TITHING, notably
recently. No hints of abandoning biblical teaching on anything? I beg to differ. And why do
you think they would go unnoticed (“no hints”) if they did not initiate or generate
controversy? Please dig a little deeper, and you’ll see.

Issues on the Holy Spirit (“feeling” of presence, “direct” influence and intervention, role
during the establishment of the church of Christ, role of being the mind of Christ now that
Christians have the truth revealed in the Scriptures, etc); issues on tithing; issues on music
in worship -- to name a few -- REALLY EXIST at Madison. Speaking of the “work of the Holy
Spirit,” I am convinced that Madison has some “charismatic” elders as evidenced by their
verbal expressions in prayer or announcements. I would not be surprised if they believe and
experience “speaking in tongues.” If they do not, I assure you that there are those in the
brotherhood that do. (Please take the time to review some of the posts that deal with this
particular issue - you might encounter the name of Don Finto or related activities at the
Jubilee.)

James, you mentioned at the outset that “there is a vast difference” between the charismatic
or Pentecostal churches and the church of Christ; that clapping and testimonies are “about the
only similarities” between the two groups. I take that to mean that you are not necessarily in
favor [or perhaps you are ashamed] of being affiliated with or of being a member of a
Pentecostal church because of the differences. But yet you seem to freely embrace clapping and
testimonials WITHOUT being concerned about possible consequences (such as DIVISION [I thought
you were afraid of this happening]). I must confess that I really have a problem with the
logic that IF DIFFERENCES ARE CONTROVERSIAL IN NATURE, for WHATEVER THEY’RE WORTH, why are
they even being introduced and practiced? The bottom line is that this is something that
CHANGE advocates and activists like you, as a worship minister, must take responsibility for.
(By the way, whatever the similarities are and differences, if any, I’m identifying worship
ministers, worship leaders, worship program facilitators as having the same role and
functions.)

Interestingly, you stated, “I believed in clapping, shouting, and raising hands long before it
ever became a glint in most of the church of Christ worship leaders’ eyes.” Just a couple of
points or so on your statement: (1) that I [Donnie] clap and shout and raise hands and do them
quite effectively - and I hope you have figured out where I DON’T do or DON’T HAVE THE URGE to
do such; (2) that since you weren’t specific as to how and why you “believed” in such things,
I could only assume that you meant performing these in your WORSHIP; (3) that “before it ever
became a glint in … worship leaders’ eyes” is an admission on your part that such practices,
right or wrong, are initiated and in many cases encouraged by worship leaders. This is
especially true at Madison where the WORSHIP LEADER encourages the outward expression of
inward emotions as evidenced by his words and behavior on stage.

Contrary to what one is expected to believe as being a natural and SPONTANEOUS expression of
joy, handclapping as an “accompaniment” to a cappella singing is REHEARSED. Besides the oddity
that handclapping is rehearsed joy, such and other practices cause others to “stumble” and be
alienated. If the clappers are right in thinking that others are wrong in being offended and
distracted, why are they NOT SENSITIVE enough to at least have consideration for those that
are not clappers? Isn’t the OUTWARD EXPRESSION of being carried away by the EMOTIONS and the
FEEL-GOOD stuff UNNECESSARY? Let me add that this FEEL-GOOD stuff is often evident in the
minds of the leaders at Madison as they verbally express it to the congregation.

Brother James, I am concerned, as well as others, that “leaders” at Madison DO NOT SEE AT ALL
that music, excellence in music and performances, and [Christian/holy] musical entertainment
are “trying to be charismatic,” how else could it be if it is apparent that we are? Perhaps,
if you were to become the WORSHIP MINISTER at Madison, you could turn this around so that, as
you said, we “don’t let our emotions BECOME the basis for our worship … nor should we ‘WORK
THE CROWD.’”

I trust that your observation is that I have tried to only IDENTIFY some of the issues at
Madison (and perhaps are prevalent in other congregations that have been infiltrated and
affected by the Community Church Movement). I have also tried to present examples and actual
occurrences of these changes at Madison. I have tried not to debate issues in this
correspondence as you well know that this website is full of arguments for and against issues.
For example, tithing is one HOT doctrinal issue at Madison right now. (I have no idea how much
reading of various posts you have done so far, since you have only recently posted your
messages. And I have no idea as to why only recently and how you came to know about this
website.) So, I would ask you to link to the Timeline thread for articles on the subject of
tithing. You just might find out for yourself that through the years you haven’t “tithed” at
all in the sense of what the New Testament has to say about LETTING “every ONE of you LAY BY
HIM in store … that there be no gatherings when I come,” when Paul was speaking to the
churches in Galatia and in Corinth about bringing their “liberality” unto Jerusalem. (I
Corinthians 16:1-3) That’s not to say that your monetary contribution, and then some, has been
in vain. Let’s just not mislead people about what tithing for the Levitical priesthood was
intended for and what “laying by him in store” was intended for, just as we try not to get
Christians confused about the law of Moses and the law of Christ.

Brother, do you know what would really solve the problem of division in the church? LEAVE
THINGS ALONE! We’ve done so well with church growth without improving upon God’s will for us.
Let’s stop doing this totally UNNECESSARY CHARISMATIC IMITATION - this would be a good
starting point. Isn’t it obvious to you that the church had been that PEACEFUL until strange
things of this nature were introduced and practiced?

Donnie Cruz


  ===========================
James Kisner


My last posting? August 23 2002, 11:13 AM

I had decided not to respond to anymore posts on this site, but I will respond to this one,
and perhaps this will be my last post (or perhaps not).

As to your statement that I am an activist, I take strong issue. I am not an activist. Yes, I
do hold beliefs that would differ from yours, Donnie, but as I said before, I have NEVER, and
I mean NEVER, used those beliefs to intentionally threaten or undermine the unity of ANY local
church (incidentally, I am a member of the Church of Christ, and yes, I'm a paid worship
minister. Again, the church I work for has not had a division over this issue). If you would
like, I'd be happy to give you the names of the churches I've worked for, and even the names
of people in those churches who would not necessarily consider me as being on the top of their
list of favorite people, and they will tell you that I am not an activist. If my postings
hinted that, I certainly did not intend such. I have tried to hold my views of the Bible in
such a way as not to cause strife in the church of our Lord. I'm not perfect, but I think
activist is a fairly strong term.

As to your statement that people in the church should "Leave Things Alone." Which things
should be left alone? As I recall in the 1970's, the days of the big bus ministries, many
churches of Christ became involved in bus ministries. Madison C of C was one of the leaders,
if I am not mistaken. And, I remember Madison being criticized severely for adopting the
practices of denominational churches. Yet, the church continued to use buses, and very
effectively. Family Life Centers are another issue. If I remember correctly, Madison C of C
and Dr. North were harshly rebuked by many brethren for building the gym. And, several
families left Madison because of it. Realizing that the above examples did not bring change
into the worship service, I am aware that they are not a completely direct comparison.
However, the building of the gym did cause some people to leave. Is that not division? So what
if not as many people left? How many have to leave before something is called "division?"
Whether the divisive issue comes in the worship service or not really has no bearing, as
division is division.

As to my beliefs in clapping, shouting, and raising of hand in worship: Yes, I believe those
are fitting and proper expressions of worship. I remember one time when I did clap and found
out later that it bothered some very sincere people in the church. Without being told to do so
by the elders, I went and apologized to them. To this day, we are good friends, and when I am
in their presence, I simply don't clap. For many years I have lifted my hands in worship and
prayer to the Lord. Never once has that been bothersome to anyone (at least to my knowledge).
I fail to see how something like lifting hands would distract other worshippers who are
concentrating on the purpose for which we are gathered. Now, when I am in a strange
congregation (one with which I am not familiar), I don't do any of those things. Not because
their sinful, but because I don't know the congregation (an activist would go ahead, with an
in-your-face attitude, and do the above-mentioned things).

That worship leaders have introduced much of the changes in worship styles in our churches
simply can't be denied. Preachers can also be placed on the list, as can elders, deacons, and
others. That there have been misuses and abuses of permissable worship acts is evident in many
places. But, the question remains, IS IT SINFUL TO RAISE ONE'S HANDS, TO CLAP (by the way,
I've never rehearsed clapping with a worship team or congregation), OR TO SHOUT? There is no
biblical injunction against it, and we are commanded to "Rejoice in the Lord." Rejoicing can
take many forms, and some people rejoice differently than others do. I cannot find anything
sinful about these practices. I admit that sometimes they are disruptive, at least clapping
and shouting are. Perhaps the passage that says "submit to one another out of love," should be
our guiding star. I admit I don't have and don't pretend to know all or even any of the
soulutions to this controversy, but we all know One who does.

Finally, I have one last observation that I made just this morning. I began looking at some of
the articles that are referenced on the homepage of this website. I don't know if you or
someone else has put the links on that page, but many of those links are to articles by
denominational people and groups, some of whom are very right wing extremists, particularly
some of the articles that speak of the "New World Order," "the Beast," and the like. I am not
opposed to reading and referencing articles from non-brotherhood sources. My question, though,
is this: Concerned Members seems to be a group of people that are concerned with
denominational error coming into the church via Rick Warren's Purpose Driven
Church/Saddleback, Bill Hybels at Willow Creek, and others. Yet many of the links on the
homepage of this site link to sites that speak of "the New World Order," "the Beast," and
other matters of prophecy; matters with which most CofC'ers would completely disagree and
reject as false doctrine (including J.E. Choate, Wayne Coats, Gary McDade, and the writers of
Spiritual Sword magazine, to which this site offers a link). I don't intend to be condemning
at all; I am just curious to know if you are aware that those links teach what they do? My
guess is that you may not, or if you do, you have the articles there as references? I was just
wondering about that.

Thanks again for taking time to read this lengthy response. I think after this one, I may
retire from posting. To be honest, I am spending too much time reading and responding to posts
on hear and it's taking time away from my job. Anyhow, I pray that God will bless all of us as
we search for Him.



  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: My last posting? (by James Kisner) August 23 2002, 11:13 AM August 23 2002, 4:46 PM

Re: My last posting? (by James Kisner) August 23 2002, 11:13 AM

James,

I’m sorry that I provoked you to anger, unintentional as I thought it might have been. I would
never begin to think or envision you as the type of person that would be like an activist
politician promoting certain agenda and inciting riot. And I was not questioning your
integrity, either. Perhaps, I should have set you apart from many of the other worship leaders
who I think are more interested in their popularity and appeal because they can easily prove
to the crowd that they are accommodating the “needs” of “others” than they are in preserving
unity in the church.

Regarding my statement that church leaders should “leave things alone,” I was relating that to
what we brought up in our posts -- issues that have caused havoc in churches like Madison. I
did not intend to have Madison’s negative past relived. I would not even categorize past
issues about buildings, kitchens, gyms, buses and others that are physical in nature in the
same way that I would issues that directly impact a Christian’s spirituality. Those past
issues did not cause members to emigrate by the hundreds. On the other hand, how would you
explain that only about 500 folks are in attendance at the 8:00 (“traditional”? what
traditional?) assembly and 900 folks, if that many, at the 10:30 (“contemporary”) assembly. If
that’s not been an upheaval, what would you call it? But if there were to be a lesson learned
from the past, it would be that worship and doctrinal issues are critical; and church leaders -
- the elders -- should be handling them through lots of prayer for divine intervention and
scriptural justification and judgments.

As to clapping (as well as shouting, which I think has not been addressed much if at all), we
both realize the sound (or noise?) effects, don’t we? Perhaps, other worship leaders should
follow your example in this regard. With lifting hands, folks (especially the women) should re-
think as to what perhaps the only reference in the New Testament means. The passage dealing
with lifting hands points out the difference between the men and women’s role at home and in
the church (I Timothy, chapters 2 and 3). Remember, “that men pray everywhere lifting up holy
hands, without wrath and doubting” and “that women professing godliness … being in subjection
…”? You know, James, in the final analysis, whether or not we can prove something as being
sinful, if it causes or should cause another brother to stumble needlessly, common sense is
enough as a determining factor in that regard. Otherwise, the “love-one-another” stuff would
be for naught!!!!

Briefly, with regard to other links from this website, those links from both sides of the
aisle are available for study, comparison, contrast and evaluation - not any different from
the fact that the ConcernedMembers website allows the seemingly unconcerned members and others
to post their viewpoints on this site. Fair enough?

Let us all continue to be vigilant as there are grievous wolves out there just waiting for
those whom they will devour!

I have enjoyed all correspondence between you and me.

Thanks!

Donnie Cruz


  ===========================
Carol

Oh, my. August 27 2002, 1:52 AM

Please, do not take offense at what I am about to say, but I must tell you that I've gotten to
the point where I laugh, quite often, at the overuse of the "causing others to stumble." I've
never been, nor will I ever be, a hand-raiser. For one, my arms get tired... and two, I think
I'd just feel conspicuous in our services where this is traditionally not the modus operandi.

It was mentioned in a post above, in a negative tone, about worship leaders leading people to
express inward emotions outwardly, as tho this is a bad thing. Is it? Again, I'm a private
person and am not given to outward displays at all... but for the life of me, I can't find a
single thing in the Bible that would lead me to believe there is a single thing wrong with
showing emotion in a worship service. In fact, if it is the heart that is to be affected - if
we are making melody and singing with our hearts - are we not, surely, likely to have some
outward show? Is a stone-faced look what we're after? Surely, surely the Lord worshiped with
joy, and surely, surely it showed on his face.

Stumble if you must, but I am hard pressed to bind upon another man that which the Lord did
not bind upon anyone. When is it appropriate for me to take my opinions about how many inches
from the ground the hands of a fellow Christian are to be during the singing of 728b, and to
bind them upon the rest of my congregation? God did not give me that authority, and if I cause
someone who feels moved to smile, or cry, or heaven forbid, raise his hands a little, to feel
constricted in his expression of joy, then by all means, I've caused HIM to stumble.

Do you truly, honestly think the Lord sits in heaven, looking down upon a worshiping body of
believers, and says, "Tsk, tsk" to himself, under His breath, when someone raises their hands?
Do you truly think that He is displeased and alarmed at the act? Personally, I have to think
that in matters such as this, he'd count us as the Pharisees, who told people how many steps
they were allowed to take before they'd committed "work."

The phrases I oft hear used against hand-raising are the stumbling block verse, and the decent
and in order verse. I'm sorry, but I think we just need to get over ourselves and step back
and evaluate, as we claim that we do, exactly what the New Testament says. This is an area
about which it is silent, and I believe no man has the right to speak for the Lord on this
issue and claim to have His authority. I think anyone who does is blasphemous. I have a very
real feeling that if any of us were to step back into the worship services of the first
century church, we'd have a laundry list of things "wrong" with them - they were not white
toast folks like us, and yet they were given nods of approval by the very people who were
involved in instituting our church.

Certainly, courtesy and respect for one another must play a part. Certainly, no person should
raise their hands just to get a rise out of the grey-haired crowd. But by the same token, if
there is no sin in it, I'd be hard-pressed to define it as appropriate for anyone who opposes
it to request that a hand-raiser cease and desist. Again - by what authority? "It bothers me?"
Is this sufficient authority? Do I have the right to deny another something that they feel
compelled to do in a worshipful manner that right because of my own hangups? Am I that worried
about such trivial matters?

The Lord is quite blatant when it comes to sin and what constitutes it's makeup. Adultry.
Lying. Hatred, Idolotry. Murder. Putting another god before Him. Sin = Evil, and I'm just
pretty hard pressed to call the things about which you fret "Evil." Annoying to some of us,
some of the time? Yeah, sure. But we must learn to distinguish between annoying and evil.

These things about which you speak are not matters of sin. They are matters of personal
preference. Until we wake up and see that, the same old, same old will continue to run amuck
and make us look like people who cannot see the forest for the trees. There are people around
the globe starving for the word of the Lord, and we're too busy being worried about the guy in
the pew across the aisle and whether his hands are levitating to consider the plight of people
caught in *true* sin, who don't know of Christ's love.

I'm afraid this does not speak well of us. Not at all.

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Oh, My. August 28 2002, 4:29 PM

You left out "sowing of discord" out of your list. Carol, I see TWO CLASSES in the world. One
is self-directed. Truth is evaluated by MY PREFERENCE. The other class with a different MARK
asks: "What does the Word say."

If you don't see the MUSIC VERSUS WORD OF GOD as sin you need to go back into the womb and get
a better beginning by understanding what REALLY happened in the garden of Eden record repeated
often in the contest between Satan's use of YOUTH AND MUSIC to SILENCE GOD'S WORD and seduce
people away from WORD which is SPIRIT.


Church is SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and worship has nothing to do with "feeling" internal or
external. The primary WORSHIP word of Paul, I repeat and repeat, is to GIVE HEED to Christ by
GIVING HEED to His words. If you can FEEL it in your FLESH then it is carnal and we do know
that music gives you a DRUG HIGH. That is not the little spirit man bouncing around in your
body. Never forget that MUSIC and SEXUALITY are eternal twins of Paganism: the authority women
(or effeminate men) were not to EXPLOIT is the Greek AUTHENTIA which is both "erotic and
sexual."

That is the ONLY meaning of praise songs and Donnie's explanation of the MUTUAL WORSHIP among
the team should just embarrass one's pants off. Of the musical worship to bring on FEELINGS,
both in the classics and church fathers it is noted that "only women and effeminate males fall
into this ritual."

Paul identified the church in Corinth as STILL CARNAL and unable to EAT THE MEAT of the Word
of God. By defining the SUPERNATURAL GIFTS Paul shames Corinth because there is NO HINT that
ANY ONE in Corinth had even the least SPIRITUAL GIFTS. Therefore, to understand Paul's sharp,
insulting form of rabbinic speech, you have to hear him say to the church in Nashville in the
person of Pavoratti:

Pavoratti comes to YOUR CHURCH and says: "I see that ALL of you are singing OPERA. But, not
ALL of you have the TALENT, do you? Well, DO YOU?
"Nevertheless, I WISH that you ALL SANG OPERA. But, Alas, let everything be done for
INSTRUCTING in operatic skills."

Our pseudo-tongue speakers (praise songs) enjoy making fools of themselves by picking up
Pavoratti's INSULT and making it into a COMPLIMENT.

Now, hear Paul who knows how to rip the hide off Simple Simons. He sais that PROPHESYING or
speaking the Words of God will cause the SEEKER to worship God. However, the corinthian
assembly "did more harm than good" (1 Cor 11:17). Contrary to what Paul would do and not do:

"How is it then, brethren? when YE (on the contrary implied) come together, every one of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done UNTO EDIFYING. 1 Corinthians 14:26

Paul DID NOT SAY "let everyone sing solo." Rather, in just plain English, he said "let all
things be done which TEACH" which is the meaning of edifying. FEELING GOOD may actually damage
your health.

Here is the way to WEED OUT the SELF-SINGERS AND SPEAKERS:

"If any MAN speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by
course; and let one INTERPRET. 1 Corinthians 14:27

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to
himself, and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:28

"Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other JUDGE. 1 Corinthians 14:29

"If any thing be REVEALED to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 1
Corinthians 14:30

"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1
Corinthians 14:31

"And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the PROPHETS. 1 Corinthians 14:32

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1
Corinthians 14:33

"Let your WOMEN keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but
they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Corinthians 14:34

"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for
women to speak in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:35

Yes, then and now, they BELIEVED their own COMMERCIAL PR that they were latter day prophets
replacing the old doctrinal TRIVIAL PURSUIT (Rubel Shelly and John York). However, Paul denied
that the self-composed songs in Corinth were inspired:

"What came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 1 Corinthians 14:36

Therefore, those who had SONGS out of their OWN SPIRIT were not speaking to the church but to
a generic God. In 14:9 they were "speaking into the air" and we know from history that the
GODDESS OF THE AIR was worshiped in Corinth.

If you have supernatural gifts then you must sing ONE AT A TIME. You must bring along ANOTHER
PROPHET to make sure that your SONG is the Word of God. The only way to KEEP OUT the
charismatic SINGERS IN TONGUES was to directly command that the Roman teach with "that which
is written," the Ephesians with "the Spirit" and the Colossians with "the Word of Christ."

If your guys are doing self-speak then they are speaking in tongues and therefore DELIBERATELY
trying to silence the WORDS of Christ.

Carol, I was so charismatically dissociated that a group singing of 728b convinced me to hire
them out of Texas and move them to Seattle. Now, having learned church growth from the
VINEYARD and Jubilee and THE ZOE GROUP, they just up and stole the church house of widows:
728b sounded so good that it must sound better with instruments. But then I get the same
FEELING with "stage coach music" which FORCES your brain to hear the "clippy clop over hill
and dale."

The concept of a WORSHIP LEADER came out of Jubilee where "teams" had the power to "move you
into the presence of God." That means, musicians are now the MEDIATORS and this is self-
evident when the unlawful CLERGY spend so much time in WORSHIP just licking one another's fur.
Suspect that they will die of a fur ball they cannot puke up.

Kenneth Sublett


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

“Oh, Carol, I’m But a Fool” in response to “Oh, my.” (by Carol) August 27 2002, 1:52 AM August
27 2002, 4:54 PM

“Oh, Carol, I’m But a Fool” in response to “Oh, my.” (by Carol) August 27 2002, 1:52 AM

Here’s good news for you. I did not take offense at what you were about to say or actually
said. At this stage, there’s nothing new anymore coming from people like you who are
insensitive to other people’s feelings and needs - of people who PERHAPS are NOT strong enough
to NOT LET the handclapping and thumping noise bother them as they evidently LOSE
concentration while they’re trying to worship the Father reverently. If you could HELP these
seemingly “WEAK” people to NOT “stumble” over this INSIGNIFICANT issue (insignificant to you
and others who are VERY strong in the faith), would be a blessing!!!

As you’ve admitted it, just continue to laugh, quite often, and I am not about to make you
stop from doing that. I’m sure that it is anybody’s, as well as your, way of expressing joy.
Because of the joy and expression of such outward emotion of an inward feeling, I would like
for you to at least do that [amplified LAUGHING or SHOUTING] right in the middle of a “praise”
song that your WORSHIP LEADER AND THE PRAISE TEAM are leading and performing. Laugh as loud as
you can, and don’t even say afterwards that you were sorry, but that you just COULDN’T HOLD
BACK the joy you had in your heart. If you’re not willing and ready to do this yourself
spontaneously, I would suggest that you get someone else who might do it [laugh and shout out
loud for joy] for you!

Carol, please “do not take offense” at what I am going to repeat: “causing others to stumble”
or “stumbling block” or “decent and in order” or “Tsk, tsk” and other similar expressions are
HERE TO STAY! As far as CLAPPING goes, I do not recall anyone on this website saying it in
itself as being sinful, whether it is or it isn’t. The closest argument against it has been
that handclapping, rehearsed or unrehearsed, is some sort of musical accompaniment (although
it is not literally a musical instrument) to the singing. It is an accompaniment to singing in
that it simulates the sound of an instrument, as it is definitely NOT vocal. The thumping on
the back of the pew is also an accompaniment, another added feature, to singing. One question
I have is that if there is a need to express your joy by handclapping to a song, why is there
no need as well for such accompaniment in singing other songs of “praise and joy”? If, say,
you were opposed to the use of musical instruments to accompany vocal singing, why would you
not be opposed to these forms of non-vocal accompaniment? Ultimately, God makes that
determination. But, let’s go further. If you had been such a KEEN observer, you would have
noticed by now (from several posts on this website and from “LISTENING” to the clapping-
thumping noise) that much of the handclapping is REHEARSED. This NEGATES the general notion
that JOY should be spontaneous and unrehearsed. If REHEARSED HANDCLAPPING were an expression
of JOY, would you call this JOY as being SPONTANEOUS? Nonsense, Carol!

Negative tone about the s-p-e-c-i-a-l “WORSHIP LEADER” L-E-A-D-I-N-G regular worshippers (like
you and me) “to express inward emotions outwardly”? Although it may NOT be “a bad thing, as we
all have emotions, and while you are a private person, not given to outward displays, why
don’t you “express your inward emotions outwardly” anyway, so that others may SEE and KNOW
that you indeed have that “spontaneous” joy and that you are not ashamed of expressing it? Or,
you just may not have the joy after all? Or, you may be suppressing your joy - which could be
a bad thing!!! (Carol, should you feel restrained in this instance?) Or, you could have that
joy, but you would not want to make others think that you are faking it?

I wonder how the churches of Christ ever survived for many, many years without handclapping
(right or wrong) being in the way or being an issue because we didn’t do it … period!!! If
we’re playing catch-up to the charismatic folks everywhere and on TBN, aren’t we centuries
behind this charismatic imitation? I believe that from a broad perspective, if only certain
folks who just felt compelled to do this sort of thing on their own did it in public worship,
this probably wouldn’t be a problem at all. But when it goes to the extent of it being
encouraged and rehearsed and becoming a routine part of the act, that’s when it might cause
someone “to stumble” (sorry, I couldn’t help but use that expression again).

Next time, just really watch the behavior of your WORSHIP LEADER on stage and the “praise
team” performance. Did you notice how Ldr. Keith Lancaster clapped his hands all by himself
after singing the last song this past Sunday? (And he has done it at other times also.) Too
bad, Keith is NOT TALENTED ENOUGH to do all these things SIMULTANEOUSLY: (1) read and/or sing
the words to a song; (2) do his hand motion with his right and/or left hand to direct; (3) do
his solo lead part; (4) interject certain words or phrases in between notes; (5) keep the team
members alert and coordinated; (6) get the attention of the congregation upon him like an
living worship IDOL; (7) get everyone’s attention to the big screen; (8) say “AMEN, our music
is just so wonderful to our ears!”; (9) keeping his foot or both feet to the beat of the music
without falling off the stage; (10) waiting for the church leaders’ approval for how excellent
or perfect his musical talent is; (11) doing certain actions like showing the shape of the
alpha character “O” or the shape of a house of worship; (12) plus other things that I have
failed to mention. Oh, yes, (13) CLAP HIS HANDS W-H-I-L-E he does all those other things! Is
that why he claps his hands AFTER singing a song? If that’s not the worship leader encouraging
the folks to do the same things, what is it?

The truth of the matter is that this problem of handclapping, sinful or not sinful, stems from
the “wisdom” of many paid MUSIC LEADERS who have learned and have been trained for the trade
extremely well. Sorry, Carol, whether or not you are going to admit it, this clapping is not
so much a doctrinal issue, as it may not be at all, but this is the trademark of the
contemporary style (where did this nonsense come from?) that’s causing havoc in the church of
Christ that is not accustomed to this CHARISMATIC IMITATION!!!!! If and since we NOW KNOW that
this is a “stumbling block” (sorry, again) that is splitting the church, why cannot the
WORSHIP MINISTERS put an end to this by not encouraging it and making it a normal part of the
routine? It’s more than just an emotional aspect, my friend. It is a ROUTINE that divides, not
unites!!! Face it! No, we shouldn’t be stone-faced. But stone-facedness does not disrupt! And
it can be changed for good if a handclapper would simply show the sunshine of a happy, smiling
face. A smiling face is catching, you know! As you said, “In fact, if it is the heart that is
to be affected - if we are making melody and singing with our hearts - are we not, surely,
likely to have some outward show?” Indeed you are right! But as I said, a smiling face would
truly reflect this joy. A smiling face is sincere and real and it has a positive effect. On
the other hand, rehearsed handclapping is not spontaneous; and if it is rehearsed and unreal
joy, it is an unnecessary accompaniment as the MUSIC DIRECTOR already does an excellent job of
keeping all the different singing parts in sync.

With lifting hands, less “offensive and disruptive” as it may seem compared to handclapping,
and whether it is sinful or not sinful, let’s not misuse this act if it should be an act where
it is explained in chapters 2 and 3 of I Timothy. I am going to restate that folks (especially
the women who have the urge to lift hands) should re-think … the passage is pointing out the
difference between the men and women’s role at home and in the church … “THAT MEN pray
everywhere lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting” and “IN LIKE MANNER ALSO …”
(comparison and contrast) “THAT WOMEN professing godliness … learn in silence with all
subjection…”

Yes, if we were, as you said, “to step back into the worship services of the first century
church,” you would find no evidence of this choir or praise team and clapping syndrome then
because the emphasis in church gatherings was not about MUSIC, but was about studying and
learning God’s words (“teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual
songs) - a simple indication that singing was only one of the methods of accomplishing the
teaching and learning process. Can you really envision a MUSIC DIRECTOR and a choir performing
MUSIC before the gathering? If nothing else, why shouldn’t we just follow your own good advice
when you said, “Certainly, courtesy and respect for one another must play a part; when you
said, “Certainly, no person should raise their hands just to get a rise out of the grey-haired
crowd … because of [their] own hang-ups.”

Carol, please don’t forget that handclapping is not the only issue. In fact, it has become
MORE of an issue from the standpoint that the church of Christ is being taught that scriptural
doctrine doesn’t matter anymore. Along with the change in worship style [as if it really
needed changing … as if there is really such a thing as a style rather than content or that
which is being taught], there are so many doctrinal issues that used to be foreign to what the
New Testament teaches that are NOW being taught in churches of Christ. But I’m not going into
these as there are many topics already brought up and discussed on this website. Yes, this is
what many folks do “not see the forest for the trees.”

If all these mentioned above and others do not matter to you, I think that you would be
welcomed by any of those religious groups who have been doing these routines for years and
years BEFORE the churches of Christ are JUST NOW LEARNING TO IMITATE. We are kind of late for
these, aren’t we? Trying to catch up is not the solution! Offending or disrupting others with
things we CAN DO WITHOUT is not the solution, either! If we stop playing “catch up” and
imitating others will certainly HELP “SPEAK WELL OF US” … as you said!

Carol, you don’t have to be a conformist to express the joy of serving the Lord. If the
handclappers express their joy in that manner (and REHEARSED for that matter) and ONLY in
public worship, this is not continuous joy in everyday living. That’s not 24/7 expression of
joy, either. Guess what? When I clap for real joy in private, I do not offend anyone and I do
not disrupt anybody. Since you yourself are a private person and you are not into public
display, you can perhaps do the same thing. Release that wonderful, unrehearsed joy in
private. It might do you a lot of good as it does me!

Donnie Cruz


  ===========================
Anonymous

Re: “Oh, Carol, I’m But a Fool” in response to “Oh, my.” (by Carol) August 27 2002, 1:52 AM
August 27 2002, 7:59 PM

That's to keep you off balance, Donnie. They try to make the whole INFILTRATING AND DIVERTING
into just sore heads who get irrated by JUST TRIVIAL PURSUIT.

I can tell you what the early church would have done with these "not ready for prime time"
guys: they would toss them out of the church or deliver them to the nearest pagan praise house
where both male and female specialized is EXTRACTING the "worshiper's" money before they could
get out of Corinth.

The Apostolic Constitutions warns:

"If one belonging to the theatre

(1) come, whether it be man or woman, or charioteer, or dueller, or racer, or player of
prizes, or Olympic gamester, or one that plays on the pipe, on the lute, or on the harp at
those games, or a dancing-master or an huckster,

(2) either let them leave off their employments, or let them be rejected. If a soldier come,
let him be taught to "do no injustice, to accuse no man falsely, and to be content with his
allotted wages:"

(3) if he submit to those rules, let him be received; but if he refuse them, let him be
rejected. He that is guilty of sins not to be named, a sodomite, an effeminate person, a
magician, an enchanter, an astrologer, a diviner, an user of magic verses, a juggler, a
mountebank, one that makes amulets, a charmer, a soothsayer, a fortune-teller, an observer of
palmistry; he that, when he meets you, observes defects in the eyes or feet of the birds or
cats, or noises, or symbolical sounds:

"let these be proved for some time, for this sort of wickedness is hard to be washed away; and
if they leave off those practices, let them be received; but if they will not agree to that,
let them be rejected.
===================================================

A watchman just sent me this to lift me up but it fits you also,

We owe so much to the watchmen of God:

To the apostles of our faith, who successfully refuted the Gnostic and Judaizing influences of
their day. To the pioneer preachers who advocated a return to the purity of Bible doctrine in
the face of denominational creeds and sectarianism.

To the Christians who withstood the digression of the late 19th century, refusing to worship
with the instrument or support the human Missionary Society. To faithful men in the 1940's who
purged the Lord's body of Premillinialism through debate and preaching. To the soldiers of the
cross who militantly stood for the truth in the Institutional controversies of the 40's, 50's
and 60's. To servants of God both past and present who through their preaching, oversight and
conviction have helped keep the church pure through the ages.

These watchmen will be heard. Criticism regarding their character, motivation and tactics will
not still their voice. They are men of righteousness motivated by a love of truth and a
protective love for the people of God. Their mission and work is righteous, and criticisms
from others will only embolden them in their efforts to serve their Lord.

But, is it not time for the Lord's "Obadiahs" to stand and be heard? Is it not time to hold up
their hands in their battle against the false teacher? To pray for their success? To let all
know that we stand with them, and laud them in their battle with the enemy?

To encourage them? Truly we need watchmen in our time, and we need good brethren to stand with
them in their mission of righteousness. Will you be an "Obadiah" to the "Elijahs" and
"Ezekiels" of our day?

=================================================

I am not sure about the end times but MUSIC and commerce will be end-time marks of the Babylon
Whore religion. Each person gets their invitation to ARMAGEDDON and it will just be WHINNY-
PINEY to say, "If I had been there I would not have crucified Jesus." Well, you are getting
your chance because the OTHER SIDE sings their own songs and gets you to WORSHIP THEM
identical to the musical pattern in heaven before the earth was created.

You can stand with them or agains them but you CANNOT stand OUTSIDE and watch the fun and
minimize the blood shed by the INFILTRATORS AND DIVERTERS trying with all of their little
hearts to keep Jesus from being seen or heard.

Remember that God poured out His wrath on the first clergy lying for money by having Jesus
refuse to speak to them except in parables like your erotic, self-worship songs. And Paul took
them as burdens off his back because he said in effect "fools love to be fooled."

Donnie, just remember that prophets (not profits) end up in cisterns up to their necks in mud:
but it won't catch fire.

Ken Sublett


  ===========================
Carol

Mr. Cruz, you mistake me... August 28 2002, 12:00 AM

for someone who lives in your city and attends your church. I do not - I live far, far away,
clear across the US. The things about which you are all in a tizzy are not salvation issues.
They are your preference, and I'm sorry you are too focused on the checklist to see the beauty
of the Lord. Not the beauty of the checklist - the beauty and awesomeness and power of our
Lord.

The things over which you fret are entirely cultural. As I do not attend church with you, I
cannot judge how loud the clapping is, how annoying it is, etc. You may be correct in your
assessment. There is no way for me to know this.

We have two services where I attend - one is more contemporary than the other. I go to the
more traditional one, and would feel like a fish out of water at the other.

That said, however, while perusing our local newspaper's message boards online one day, I saw
something very interesting. Someone posted that they were new to town, and could not find a
church that addressed the needs of their heart. They asked where anyone might recommend they
go. Guess what - the answer he got was from someone who had visited our more contemporary
service! They said that while it was different than the typical "stiff" church of Christ
service, that they found it to be doctrinally sound, and very touching at the same time. They
stated that they were not a c of C member, but that they could not help but go back time and
time again, as surely, the presence of the Lord was in that place.

Amazing, huh?

See... I think in our very narrow little world, we have made assumptions that are far from
correct. I have a Baptist friend whose daughter sang a solo in church. Not advocating we go
this route, mind you, but simply, I was taken aback to realize how wrong our assumptions are
about such things. Someone said of her solo, "It was so moving - I was really touched by those
words." WE, in our infinite wisdom, would've been accusing them of being in it for the
entertaiment! But those people, who were THERE and who had never been TOLD that they were
supposed to see it as entertainment, were moved SPIRITUALLY. In OUR wisdom, the only
possibility was for them to have been ENTERTAINED!

I live where people raise their hands and occasionally clap. And it's of no consequence to me.
Our congregation is quite a melting pot, with members who are from many backgrounds. Simply,
we've all just learned to live in harmony and not fight about the small stuff. When someone
takes up clapping, so be it. Nobody sweats bullets. Nobody feels compelled to join. Nothing is
indecent or out of order, and as of yet, I've not witnessed anyone stumble.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy your sarcastic remarks about weakness. The way to overcome weakness
is to be challenged - not to say, "I'm WEAK, so don't you DARE do anything that makes me
uncomfortable!" I hate to tell you, but I'm afraid Christ would've made you very
uncomfortable. He really stirred things up in his day, ya know. It's what he did best, and he
was crucified for it.

If it's not a matter of salvation, I don't feel in any way, shape, or form that I have the
right to condemn anyone for doing it. Believe me, I've been where you are, but over a
different issue. Our issue was that someone put a big wooden cross up behind the pulpit of our
auditorium when I was in high school. Half the congregation was livid - how could they even
CONCENTRATE with that up front??? The cross is not an IDOL - it's something that is now
supposed to exist in our heads, and how dare anyone put that up front where I can't even watch
the preacher without seeing it! For what it's worth, I was of this mind. The other half were
delighted. They said it gave them something visual to help them picture Jesus' suffering -
that it truly enhanced their ability to do what they were suppoed to be doing. That cross hung
there for two years while the elders wrestled with both sides. That church is now two
churches. How sad that it had to come to that.

One last thing. Does not the Bible say, "If any man has a song, let him sing it?" Notice, it
does not say, "Let him lead the congregation in singing it." It says let HIM sing it. I've not
attended a church that regularly has a praise team, tho ours tends to have people, probably
twice a year, sitting on the front row with microphones singing the different parts to help us
hear new songs better. But in light of that verse, is it not possible to interpret it as a
COMMAND? If he does, he should! Or should he not, if it might cause you to stumble?

I don't doubt for a minute that you have those in your midst who are more intent on turning it
into a party than reverant worship. But I must tell you that from my personal observation, the
more you pray for them, quietly, in your own home, and the more you try to treat them with
love and kindness, the more likely they are not to be in your face with their clapping. You
resist, they resist. You pray and act lovingly, and they will respond in kind.

It's as simple as that. Have you tried that approach, or have you prayed that they would see
the error of their ways? Did you pray the prayer of a Pharisee, or the prayer of one wanting a
brother to exist in harmony?

Just some things to think about.

  ===========================
Kristie

Thank you, Carol, for your perspective August 28 2002, 2:02 PM

Carol,
Thank you for your views expressed in the preceding post. To someone newly visiting this site,
as you apparently are, from an active member of Madison Church of Christ, I would like to
summarize a couple of things you will and will not find on this site:

You will not find:
1. That the owners or moderators currently attend any worship services at Madison Church of
Christ, though may still claim to be members.
2. The only direct source of information that is given any vocal approval is Mr. Donnie Cruz,
who attends apparently only on Sunday mornings and who only reports anything negative he
perceives (there are people baptized into Christ virtually every week, but you won't hear
about THAT!)

You will find:
1. Unlimited criticism of the preacher, the song (or worship) leader and the worship services.
2. Lengthy dissertations from numerous historical writings most have never heard of (doesn't
matter that some of the traditionalists say "speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where
the Bible is silent," -- you are going to get quotes from literally dozens of other sources.)

Anything positive you read will come from current members of the Madison Church of Christ and
that will be quickly "refuted" by all the others who chime in, having no firsthand knowledge
at all. The lone exception is Mr. Cruz and, as stated, he will focus ONLY on the negative and
HIS view of matters. -- Never mind that some of his accusations are ludicrous.

The moderators have asked people who differed from their viewpoint to bring proof that they
are wrong. I would honestly like to see the following statements by Mr. Cruz PROVED in any
way, but I don't see it happening.
-----------------------------------------------------
Donnie Cruz quote from 8/21/02 "I Am Saddened, etc."
I would encourage you and others of the same viewpoint to look at the BIG picture. We are not
dealing only with the handclapping-thumping sound effects of the praise teams. There are many
more important issues that, as you’ve well stated, do “STEM FROM A CONCERN FOR SCRIPTURE.”
Significantly enough, one issue leads to another, and this is where “propagation” is occurring
- NOT that this website is propagating strife and confusion. When worship intended to be of
reverence is transformed into excellence in musical performance and entertainment, when the
office of the eldership is abused and its role changed, when we are now to expect the Holy
Spirit to have DIRECT influence on us and to experience the power of performing miracles and
speaking in tongues, when the Old Testament law of tithing for the Levitical priesthood is
being enforced upon N.T. Christians in lieu of liberal giving, and many, many other issues -
then, it is necessary for us to be alarmed. What good is the church of our Lord, then, if we
are becoming experts at doing charismatic imitation and flowing with the current tide of the
Community Church Movement? You know, the church of Christ is only hundreds of years BEHIND in
these matters. Are we playing catch-up?

My question 8/27/02:
Question #1....Who expects the Holy Spirit to have direct influence on "us" and how was this
done? I know I have not been sleeping during worship and I sure missed that one.

Question #2....Experience the power of performing miracles and speaking in tongues? I
DEFINITELY have not seen or heard any indication of that at Madison. Just to be sure I was not
totally out of sync, I asked several current members if I had missed something and I have been
present at MOST worship services at Madison for a long time. The people I talked to were as
incredulous as I was at that claim. If that was not made up totally out of thin air, I would
be astonished. Do you have ANY facts to substantiate such a wild claim?

Question #3.....Tithing for the Levitical priesthood being ENFORCED upon N.T. Christians? Come
on! How on earth could tithing be enforced? Lessons on giving are nothing new, but I am sure
the ACLU or someone of their ilk would be around fast as lightning if "forced tithing" were
even whispered about.

.....I have left your claim of "musical performance" for last, purposely as it is the least
wild of all your claims above. Performance versus worship is so totally subjective and it
appears obvious you are never going to acknowledge than anything other than what YOU deem
appropriate is worship.

Question #4....Be honest.....would you consider anything as worship other than a solemn-faced
man announcing the hymn number from your own list of preapproved "song books," and barely
lifting a hand to indicate when the congregation was "allowed" to begin singing a pre-
designated number of songs?

I do apologize in advance if you feel the tone of this post is somewhat sarcastic and frankly
incredulous. But, I have re-read many of your posts where your tone and remarks are of the
same or are even more scathing. In particular, I get the distinct impression that nothing less
than Keith Lancaster being boiled in oil would satisfy your need to denigrate him..... (just a
FEW examples in your own words listed below)

Donnie Cruz 8/21/02: There’s hardly a Sunday anymore in which Keith Lancaster, the WORSHIP
LEADER, is not glorified and idolized as the ONE who connects.

Donnie Cruz 8/23/02: Here’s to clarify the objective of the survey for those who are not so
familiar with Madison’s situation. Both 8:00 and 10:30 worship services followed the same
program for many, many years, using a hymnal. Since the employment of the current WORSHIP
LEADER, Keith Lancaster, around the middle of 1998 (if I’m correct), have other singing
resources been used: “Songs of Praise and Worship,” the RED NOTEBOOK, sheet music, songs from
CD’s of Christian rock artists, etc

Donnie Cruz: Next time, just really watch the behavior of your WORSHIP LEADER on stage and the
“praise team” performance. Did you notice how Ldr. Keith Lancaster clapped his hands all by
himself after singing the last song this past Sunday? (And he has done it at other times
also.) Too bad, Keith is NOT TALENTED ENOUGH to do all these things SIMULTANEOUSLY: (1) read
and/or sing the words to a song; (2) do his hand motion with his right and/or left hand to
direct; (3) do his solo lead part; (4) interject certain words or phrases in between notes;
(5) keep the team members alert and coordinated; (6) get the attention of the congregation
upon him like an living worship IDOL; (7) get everyone’s attention to the big screen....

There are more references than these, but you get the idea.
---------------------------------------
I am very sad to have to agree that none of the above speaks well of our fellowship, but
please be aware that there are those who are members of Madison Church of Christ who DO love
the Lord with all our hearts and who are trying to worship in harmony. We love each other and
are trying to worship in spirit and in truth without causing anyone to stumble. If there are
those who are stumbling over someone ELSE clapping (NOT rehearsed and not predominant)or
raising hands, then maybe those stumblers need to look inside themselves to find some balance.



  ===========================
Leo

Excellent August 29 2002, 7:08 AM

Excellent posts, Carol and Kristi!

Donnie, I would have thought you would like having a music survey, giving us the chance to
vote on what songs we really want to sing. I thought one of your problems was that you
percieved that Keith has too much control and that the majority of the congregation is unhappy
with the song selection (among many other things). Well, this is your chance to put your 2
cents in, about that anyway. Did you vote? If you didn't vote on Sunday, you had another
chance last night, as they passed the cards out again and encouraged everyone to vote. If you
don't vote, I would say that you don't have much room to criticize the song selection anymore.
I would think that you would be happy to see that Keith is interested to know exactly what
people want. But, of course, you chose to pick that apart, too. I couldn't imagine what fault
you would find with that survey, but you managed to come through with flying colors, as usual.


Leo

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Excellent (by Leo) August 29 2002, 7:08 AM August 31 2002, 5:01 PM

Re: Excellent (by Leo) August 29 2002, 7:08 AM

Leo, let me remind you that the statistical data I provided under another thread was not
intended to do any form of analysis of any particular song or songs. It was simply to point
out the preferences by those in charge of song selections from either: (1) the regular hymn
book or (2) resources that were introduced by Keith: “Songs of Praise and Worship,” the RED
NOTEBOOK, sheet music, other songs from the charismatic “Maranatha” and TBN, and CD’s from
Christian “ROCK” artists. That is not to say that every song in the regular hymnbook is
worship material, either. In fact, there are quite a number of songs of latter-day
contemporary or charismatic saints included in the hymnbook unfortunately. (Anyway, the
scriptural content of many songs would make an interesting separate discussion altogether.)

Yes, Keith’s behavior on stage as THE WORSHIP LEADER of the Madison believers really bothers
me. I feel insulted for our real mediator Jesus Christ because Keith just loves his role as
the Great Someone who, according to Chris Gingles’ words in his prayer, makes that CONNECTION
between us and the Father whom we worship. I really detest the idea of someone playing
mediator especially if he is not even aware of it or if he refuses to acknowledge it. Just as
you said, Keith has too much control and he has no business doing that!!!

Having a “music” survey is probably not a bad idea, especially if you meant some serious study
of songs that have scriptural or reverential value. If you meant selection of favorites to
make the congregation happy, it might not be a bad idea, either. (Not enough space on the
survey card for me to list many of my favorite songs. Oh, I’m more than “happy to see that
Keith is interested to know exactly what people want” - it’s about time he did anyway, don’t
you think?) At any rate, I would be interested in knowing the results of the survey this past
Sunday. If your music leaders have no intention of publishing the results, it will do a lot of
good if you, Leo, should take the initiative of collecting the data and of doing some analysis
for us. I’m sure I’d be the last person to be given access to the data for analysis. So,
please keep this in mind. We all will be waiting for the results!


  ===========================
Leo

Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) August 29 2002, 7:08 AM August 31 2002, 10:27 PM

Donnie,

I did not say that Keith has too much control. I said I thought that you perceived that Keith
has too much control. I'm sorry, but I won't be able to accomplish the task that you assigned
me of collecting data and doing analysis. I have a full time job and other things to do and,
quite honestly, am not interested in doing as you asked. I'm really not sure I understand the
need for such an analysis anyway. Does everything have to have that much analysis? Do we have
to disect everything to the point that it would wear most people out just thinking about it?
It seemed simple enough to me to just fill out my 3 favorite songs and turn my card in. I
don't think it needs to be made so complicated.

Leo

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) August 31 2002, 10:27 PM September 3 2002, 4:07 AM

Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) August 31 2002, 10:27 PM

Leo,

OK, you just thought that I perceived “that Keith has too much control.” Thank you for giving
me the idea, anyway. Not only do I perceive that, but also do I strongly believe it as many
others do. In fact, his control is getting out of hand. The elders have given him so much
power and authority that they themselves seem to be under his control. It is really sad that
the “leadership” did not stop Keith from implementing his worship innovations - the straw that
broke the camel’s back. I still maintain that had it not been for the unnecessary moves,
hundreds of members would not have emigrated.

I really did not expect you to do any analysis from the survey of songs. I was just making a
point that folks need to know if one’s favorite songs are another’s favorite songs also. I
have one question, though. WHY do you think “they” came up with this survey stuff? Is it
possible that if most folks favored the singy-clappy-thumpy songs, they would publish the
results? Is it possible that if most folks still favored many of the sacred hymns, that we
would not hear about it? I’m assuming that some form of analysis is being done. Would you be
kind enough to ask the analysts to give you or to publish the results of the survey? Besides,
it is not a matter of dissecting “everything to the point that…” or making it so
“complicated”; it is more a matter of interest, don’t you agree? Aren’t you interested in
knowing if your favorite 3 songs were also other people’s favorites?

Donnie

  ===========================
Leo

Re: Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) August 31 2002, 10:27 PM September 3 2002, 1:52 PM

Donnie,

Here's an idea - why don't you ask the analysts to give YOU or publish the results if you want
to know them? Do you really need me for that? Are you not capable of asking them or asking
Keith for that yourself? By the way, you speak of "singy-clappy-thumpy songs". I would imagine
that a "clappy song" is one that involves clapping and a "thumpy song" is one that invovles
thumping...so what is a "singy song"? One that involves singing? So now we are against songs
that involve singing?! Incredible.

Leo

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) September 3 2002, 1:52 PM September 3 2002, 4:12 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) September 3 2002, 1:52 PM

Leo,

You are really helping me to be creative. I hadn’t thought about what I meant by the “singy”
stuff. It just came out a-rhyming. But if you really want me to explicate the matter, I can
give you an example or two. There is a praise song that repeats the chorus so many times after
each verse:

Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!
Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!
Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!
Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!
Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!
Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!
Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!

(I’m not sure about the exact number of la-la’s in the word or the exact number of times the
word “Hal-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lelujah!” is repeated.)

Another one is the sort of cheerleading clappy-thumpy song called, “I Belong to Jesus” (I
believe, especially composed for the “young” people to clap and thump to). The first time I
heard that performed, I almost jumped out of my skin.

Another one is the humming (no words recited) to/of the song, “O Sacred Head Now Wounded”
during the observance of the Lord’s Supper this past Sunday. Now, Leo, I am not complaining
about the hymn. To me it has more to do with expecting folks, including folks who are not
familiar with the song, to know and ponder upon the words during the HUMMING. Oh, man, I
thought I was listening to a stand-alone simulated trumpet sound to a song.

I’m not going to give you any more assignments, I promise, since you didn’t get my point. I
was just trying to get you to think a little more deeply.

Donnie


  ===========================
Leo

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) September 3 2002, 1:52 PM September 3 2002, 4:38 PM

Donnie,

Sorry - since I was at early service yesterday, I didn't know that you hummed to a song and
used no words at late service, thereby causing it to be a hummy song and not a singy song. I
thought we only used singy songs, but I guess we sometime use hummy songs too.

Leo

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excellent (by Leo) September 3 2002, 4:38 PM September 3 2002,
6:17 PM

LEO;

FOR THE SAKE OF THE U.S. TAXPAYER I AM GOING TO LET YOU HAVE THE FINAL WORD, SO YOU CAN GET
BACK TO WORK.

DONNIE



This message has been edited by t on Sep 4, 2002 9:28 AM



  ===========================
Angered

You Owe An Apology September 4 2002, 5:48 PM

Mr. Cruz,

I am NOT Leo, but I do know Leo. I also know that Leo posts on this site during lunch and
break. While you may think that those paid by the taxpayers don't deserve lunch and break, it
is guaranteed by law. I also know that Leo works many hours a month for which there is NO pay
because of the structure of the government. So, as I'd tell my kids, it is obvious that you
think you are so smart because you could tell Leo was posting from a "government" computer.
Rules specifically allow "government" employees to use the computer during their MUCH DESERVED
down time. If you want to refute what people on this site say and to continue to assume that
you KNOW ALL and have all the answers, do so, but stop making assumptions about which you know
nothing.

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: You Owe An Apology (by Angered) September 4 2002, 5:48 PM September 13 2002, 1:30 AM

Do I owe Leo an apology? No, I don’t. You’re the one who’s let the world know FOR SURE where
he works. I believe you owe him an apology.

Donnie


  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Think you, Carol? August 29 2002, 9:10 AM

Hay, Kristie.

If you went to the Preacher Factory you would study Patristics: that's them OLDEN guys some of
whom knew John. If God told Noah to build the ark and a super-apostle (old timer Paul's term)
told you that GOD wanted YOU to build one AT CHURCH or tithe, here is what awakes would do.
First, they would check the Bible. Then, they would see if the New Testament ever commanded
withe. Then, you would check the "fathers" who lived pre-hired clergy. Then, you might check
the founders of denominations. Only rarely would you check with a new Phd with fat still
sticking to his sheepskin or wineskin or whatever.

Now, Kristie, maybe you don't KNOW what goes on in the minds of those whom you have succeeded
in DRIVING AWAY like silent lambs: if Donnie leaves is he deprived of knowing the HISTORY of
the fall? But Donnie MIGHT have been hallucinating and the tape was forged and the Marcher
just mad. If so then let me know. For now, I am asked to comment on taped and published
sermons. As well, your YOUNG authority speaks in tongues and wished for a raising the dead
like they do in Voodoo land. Is there no ENDORSEMENT implied by the selection of PRINTED
TEACHER?
============================
Now, if I wanted to FORCE tithing, I would say with most legalistic teachers of tithing that
if you don't "you will be cursed." But everyone knows that God said: "O Priests, this warning
is to YOU."

============================
PREACHER SEZ: "Now, someone may think that, say, "Well, I don't tithe; I don't believe in
tithing because we're not under the Law and [uh] we're not under the Old Testament; that's the
Old Testament."
------Listen, 1st Corinthians 6:10, "There'll be no thieves ... to inherit the kingdom of God
[passage not audible, KJV by d.c.]."

Did YOU hear that, Kristie? Can you escape world-wide contempt if you DEFEND that which is NOT
TRUE? Were you so enthralled by the worship "singing" which was not Biblical Teaching that you
didn't GRASP that if you don't TITHE you are a thief and YOU will not inherit the kingdom? (if
heard properly)

This quotation also warns against EXTORTIONERS. And Paul DID NOT want any collections during
his perhaps 3 months stay in Corinth because his presence would act as EXTORTION.

============================
PREACHER SEZ: Jesus did not repeal the LAW of MOSES on Tithing for the Tribe of Levi.
Therefore, "the Hebrew writer did not repeal it, he affirmed it (Hebrew 7:4-8)

If the TITHE is in effect then the CURSE is still in effect. But, is a law to the Tribe of
Levi (including musical teams) still in effect. Are you a Levite?

Did you hear that, Kristie? Did you sleep or do you AFFIRM that God COMMANDS you to feed the
Levites who have been disfellowshipped these 2,000 years? Isn't that an implied threat because
the PRIESTS who did not tithe in Malachi were CURSED because they didn't TEACH. Don't you care
enough about TRUTH to read?

============================
PREACHER SEZ: Well, Jesus said, over in Luke 6:38, "If you give to me, I will give back to
you, pressed down, shaken over, running over."
-----That's New Testament on the Old Testament saying,
-----if you give the tithes, God will open the windows of heaven and pour out for you a
blessing.

Well, Kristie, did you BUY that and does the promise of CASH from God not intimidate you into
giving as a good CAPITALIST? It says that if YOU give Miller Dan a good deal on wheat then
Miller Dan will give you a good measure of flour. Is there any OLDEN guy who would support the
preacher? But, you don't care P.M. (Pre Me).

Don't you 'TEST THE SPIRITS' and find out that it is the EVANGELISTS who are to POUR OUT THE
BLESSINGS by going out and preaching and being happy if they have food and a place to lay
their heads? Jesus refutes this PRESSURE on you to TITHE.

============================
PREACHER SEZ: Tithing is a common thing in the first century church. Both Jewish Christians
and Gentile converts practiced tithing. Now, tithing simply refers to 10 percent of your
money, property, wealth, or crops, whatever.

That is applying PSYCHOLOGICALLY VIOLENT PRESSURE on you by just MAKING UP the proof.

Kristie, you were SLEEPING or MILDLY SCHIZOPHRENIED or just don't care for the truth. Did
anyone PROVE to you that Jews and Christians tithed in the church? That is NOT a fact. Isn't
that what spreads mud all over your faces all over the world. Don't' blame Donnie for your
self-inflicted and, I believe, mortal wound. The MARK is that you can no longer hear Jesus in
the Word. If the Bible and those "olden guys" repudiate the preacher then you believe the
POSTMODERNS that they have APOSTOLIC POWER.

============================
PREACHER SEZ: And tithing has the idea that that 10 percent is the first 10 percent; so in the
Old Testament when God gave directions to His people, the Jews, about tithing. By the way,
tithing is not just [uh] a Jewish thing.

That is PRESSURE PLENTY. The 2 out of 7 years tithe with 1/10 of that going to the priests,
was from the FARMERS ONLY and it was of the INCREASE. By analogy, most of your CASH INCOME
goes out in supporting YOUR FAMILY which God wants you to take care of. At the END OF THE YEAR
ONLY, whatever SAVINGS you have left over is YOUR INCREASE. How much do you LAY BY YOURSELF in
YOUR bank each year as SAVINGS? Then if you want to TITHE it would be ROBBERY to ask you to
give more than 10% of your NET SAVINGS.

If you earn 50,000 dollars the preacher wants 5,000 dollars. However, you pay the LEVITES or
civil government UP TO 50% already. That leaves only 25,000. Of this, you pay housing,
transportation, food, clothing, and many more things as your COST OF DOING business. If you
are EXTREMELY RARE you perhaps save 1,000.00 as your YEARLY INCREASE. On the 3rd and 6th year
give the "church" 10% or 100.00 on top of your already 50% and they give the preacher $10.00
(no more). On the 1st and 2nd year YOU CONSUME your own tithe at church potlucks or other
festivals. On the 4th and 5th year you LAY BY YOURSELF in store for the local teachers and
MEDIATORS.

If you DEFEND even SUGGESTING tithing and the misrepresenting it then you, Kristie, are ALSO
GUILTY of trying to oppress the poor and defend it by false teaching. Now, sleep on that! If
preacher says that you OWE 10% of your CASH every year then Malachi says that HE is ROBBING
you of WAGES which were NEVER SUBJECT to the tithe. You have the option of deliberately
perverting the Word OR inspired preachers.

============================
PREACHER SEZ: "It was practiced in Egypt and Babylon and Syria. "

Kristie, why didn't that WAKE you up? Didn't you catch on in this SUNDAY SCHOOL IN EXILE FOR
EVERYONE that the Encomiasts or PRAISE LEADERS and the cultic singing of PRAISE SONGS has its
origin in Babylon at the tower. The temple on top was like "a city set on 7 hills" where you
PLAYED and PAID your way into the presence of God. Don't you care that UNIVERSALLY with the
olden guys, the praise team (whatever the sex) was the HAREM OF THE GODS.

Even so, in many nations where individuals did not OWN the lands, the FOOD ONLY CROPS were
tithed. This then provided the INCOME TAX and the NATIONAL GOVERNMENT paid the priests. The
Jewish priests got about .286% of the FOOD ONLY in CANAAN ONLY as a DAILY DOLE OF FOOD while
serving IN THE TEMPLE ONLY. Why would you NOT expect that to make you into a laughingstock
without having to PASS THE BLAME?

============================
Bible SEZ: That "laying by HIM in store" does not even give the PREACHER free will
contributions. That means that Kristie stores up BY Kristie weekly sums of money. This money
would never clink into a collection plate but Paul would send HONEST AGENTS to "make up your
bounty." And this money then went directly to the hands of the elders who had to FEED THE
DESTITUTE. If the PREACHER is appealing to LEGALISM there are no church provisions in the
church. Therefore, you MUST NOT support any efforts forced by false teaching or warning you
against being a robber.

Early church history knows of no LAW OF GIVING. Giving was for the PROSPEROUS to help feed the
DESTITUTE ONLY within the church. It wasn't until AD 364 that ON THE GO preachers ceased to be
supported by his TEAM of friends, and preachers were paid by the STATE and pagan priests
trampled over one another to get baptized and on the dole.

If you want to give or TITHE be my guest but don't let any LEGALIST tell you that you are a
JEW living on TRIBAL LAND in the land of CANAAN and that the PREACHERS are the PRIESTS and the
musicians are the Levitical Sounders of "hard bondage." Since some of your group along with
the Jubilee HATCHED the RESTORATION OF LEGALISM, then you CANNOT pass the blame to others. And
don't expect that the watching, literate church will not OVERLOOK such world-wide sowing of
discord by teaching and example. Guys like you truly DISCORD the non-Hollywood-Dollywood-Grand
Ole Opry world trying to become CHRISTIANS. Contrary to most, they can read their Bible and
deliberate misuse AROUSES THEM FROM SLEEP.

And please wake up little Kristie, wake up! If you want to PREACH THE GOSPEL which imposes no
ANXIETY-CREATING MUSIC or FEES for participation then let me know and I will show you how you
can MEET the test which is now in your lap.

Ken Sublett trying desperately to FREE you from LEGALISTS using music and money to FORCE your
compliance with the subliminal distortion slipped in with music.


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Mr. Cruz, you mistake me... (by Carol) August 28 2002, 12:00 AM August 29 2002, 11:52 AM

Re: Mr. Cruz, you mistake me... (by Carol) August 28 2002, 12:00 AM

Regardless, you presented the SIMILAR views, arguments, illustrations and circumstances that
the “contemporary” members here at this local congregation would do. At least, you (partly)
identified yourself as other than “Anonymous.”

You know, I really question the motive behind the “alternative” FORMAT of worship called
“contemporary” STYLE. This was initiated by the pro-charismatic/pro-change-advocacy of the
leadership here prior to the resignation of all 7 “let’s-be-scriptural” elders. The
contemporary style is actually a borrowed concept from the Saddleback design or model for
church growth. This concept is a means of identifying its participants as members of such ONE
group with that “style” in contrast to ANOTHER group now labeled as “traditional.” I do not
buy this concept as it fosters and implies division. To the local community where Madison is
located (and even to the membership itself), the congregation is being identified as either
“we and us” OR “they and them.”

In case you don’t know, the implementation of this model at Madison has resulted in a dismal
failure. The original Madison congregation has been infiltrated and intruded upon by this
trendy change advocacy, which has done nothing but alienate many faithful members; hence, the
massive emigration by the hundreds, estimated at 1500 and still going. In essence, in as much
as the leadership does not want to admit it, there are really TWO separate groups that share
and meet in the SAME building at different times. Let me explain that being in two separate
groups does not mean separated because of space limitations to accommodate all attendees as it
was necessitated originally, but rather because of the absence of unity in the bond of peace.
We all know that’s far from and is never God’s intention for His church to be in such a
predicament. It is against New Testament teachings and Restoration Movement principles of only
ONE united body of Christ.

I am surprised that while you claim to be more associated with “traditional” stuff, you
undoubtedly have very strong “contemporary” leanings - if I may use that terminology. It
appears that based on your stand on the particular issues we have discussed, your
disassociation from the traditional stand would serve you better where [using some of your own
words] you probably would: (1) be more “joyful” without being distracted and annoyed by the
musical clapping noise; (2) be more “spiritually moved”; (3) have the “needs of the heart”
better addressed; (4) feel different than attending a “stiff” church of Christ service; (4) be
so convinced that it is [equally] “doctrinally sound” and at the same time “touching”; (5)
feel that you “could not help but go back time and time again, as surely, the presence of the
Lord was in that place”; (6) not “feel like a fish out of water”; (7) likely recommend to
others where to attend; (8) enjoy a “solo” and be “really touched by those words”; (9) not be
accused of being “entertained”; (10) not be concerned by the overly charismatic behavior of
the worship leader [who can never be an idol] on stage as he makes that “connection between
Thee and me and my brethren”; (11) be with those who are NOT “more intent on turning it into a
party [or concert] than reverent worship.” Oh, I’m sure I have not listed everything else in
your favor.

Speaking of other things, I think you should turn to your contemporary friends about the
tizzies, preferences, non-salvation issues, focus on the MUSIC and MUSICAL ENTERTAINMENT,
fretting over cultural matters, making assumptions that SEEM scriptural, inconsequential
clapping, consideration and sensitivity to the needs of others, attempting to be in harmony
and unity with the alienated brethren, etc., etc.

Yes, I’ll admit that I was being facetious about the “WEAK” brethren - too weak to not let
“strange” fire and incense of the “STRONG” and emotionally driven brethren bother them. But I
was trying to drive a point to anyone that just doesn’t get it. I’ll correct myself right now.
Next time, I’ll try not to be sarcastic about it. After all, these are really STRONG brethren
who refuse to compromise the truth for secular and worldly matters.

Finally, let me remind you once again that based on your comments, it appears that you are not
any different from your “contemporary” friends in regard to systematically crafting diversions
from the real issues. Don’t be fooled by thinking that the silly handclapping matter is all
that has raised controversies. Other problems that have arisen and the spiritual disease that
has inflicted the church are much more too serious and of major importance than the silly,
charismatic handclapping feature in the worship. Handclapping, already damaging as it is to
preserving the unity of the body of believers, is just a tip of the iceberg. Let me encourage
you to do some more evaluation and analysis before you can draw your own personal conclusion
that I am damning everybody or everything in sight without scriptural support and evidences. I
would even recommend that you read my prior post again. This website is full of those issues
on tithing, covenant of membership, Saddleback and Community Church Movement influences in
churches of Christ, de-emphasis on scriptural doctrinal matters, departure from New Testament
principles and teachings, adaptation of secular standards and guidelines and resources for
spirituality -- just to name a few.

Donnie Cruz


  ===========================
Kevin


Dear Mr. Cruz September 3 2002, 1:09 AM

Mr. Cruz,

If you are having such a hard time worshipping God at Madison, why don't you find another
place where you can worship God.

When you worship on Sunday, it shouldn't bring out a bitter attitude, and that is what I am
sensing from your posts. It might be time for you to let go.

Let these people worship in a way that brings them closer to God, and find a place where you
can do the same. THen everyone wins.

This is submitted in Christian love, and I hope it gets posted so you have an opportunity to
read it and respond to it.

Spurly

  ===========================
Anonymous

leave & everyone "wins" September 3 2002, 1:36 PM

Kevin,

I note with interest your response and recommendation to Mr. Cruz. I take exception to your
statement that “everyone wins” for I do not believe it is a scriptural concept. However, I may
be reading more into your “everyone wins” statement than you intended. I believe you correctly
point out that attitude is an important factor in our worship. You are certainly entitled to
your opinion about the attitude of Mr. Cruz and what would be the best course of action for
him to take. You could even be correct in your assessment. However, I can tell you from
personal experience that you are likely overlooking a key element in your “everyone wins”
scenario…… You have assumed that if individuals find another place to worship, that “these
people” - those left at Madison c of C- will be able to “worship in a way that brings them
closer to God” . I doubt the validity of that last quotation. The reason I doubt that
assumption is presented as follows for your consideration.

I have no connection, ties, or past membership with the Madison c of C. This site is my sole
source of information regarding Madison. My interest springs from having recently experienced
a VERY similar situation within the congregation I attended for many years. Not long after the
resignation of 1 elder, the remaining elders issued the same basic plea that you have made to
Mr. Cruz. The elders stated during the assembly and in writing “please for your on spiritual
welfare, find a congregation where you can submit to an eldership and be happy in doing it".
Approximately 125 people did just that. According to your reasoning the problems would then be
settled and everyone could “win”. This is the point at which my actual experience and your
thoughtful proposal differ dramatically. Shortly after members departed the congregation, and
began placing membership elsewhere, the true nature of the elders plea for members to leave
was revealed. The elders proceeded to demonstrate that they were not so concerned about the
spiritual welfare of members when they issued their advice to find some other place to worship
and be happy. These elders were apparently having such a hard time moving forward with their
own “worship that brings them closer to God”, that they had to get in a last ? blow directed
at those who took the elders advice and departed. The elders then wrote, unanimously signed,
and mailed a letter to approximately 50 “surrounding congregations” . This letter had only 2
points. 1st - to charge as a group “former members” with spreading lies and false rumors and
to make clear that the elders believed these “former members” had not only sinned but were now
condemned eternally. The precise quotation was that former members need to “return to the Lord
!”. 2nd - to state that the eldership was not being lead astray or invoved in some kind of
liberal movement” and invite area elders and preachers to a meeting. (where they would attempt
to prove it). I suppose they can be reasonably expected to attempt to disprove anything they
wish. Perhaps they can even find a biblical basis for publicly condemning as a group all
“former members” of sin. (Although they would need to individually confront them with their
sin before making the charge public - and they did not !). But my point is this….. your
proposal / recommendation for anyone to leave the Madison church of Christ in order for
everyone to “win” is likely flawed. Although, it would appear that Christians should be able
to simply part company and carry on with their lives, such is seldom the case. If the point of
dispute is over a “matter of expediency” , your proposal may work but regrettably that is
doubtful. If the point of dispute is over a matter of biblical authority it will not and
should not work. I can see that some members of the Madison c of C have in some way questioned
the authority of the remaining elders. (whether founded or unfounded. I can state based upon
my experience, your solution will not work in a manner where everyone can “win”.



  ===========================
Kevin


leave and everyone wins September 7 2002, 12:32 PM

It all depends on how you leave. If you leave by making a big ruckus of matters of opinion,
then no, everyone does not win.

However, if when matters of opinion like clapping, raising hands, praise teams, etc. cause you
and the church you are attending to go in different directions and you leave quietly and
gracefully, then there are never any problems.

The problem comes in when Christians take matters of opinion (which are the source of most
splits), turn them into essentials, and beat each other up over them. Then when they leave,
what you described might occur.

Whatever happened to "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things love."

Spurly

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Dear Mr. Cruz (from Kevin) September 3 2002, 1:09 AM September 3 2002, 2:47 PM

Re: Dear Mr. Cruz (from Kevin) September 3 2002, 1:09 AM

Dear Kevin:

I would like very much to give you a “blue ribbon” for your suggestion. Unfortunately, you
weren’t the first one to come up with it. Where have you been? This has been a wish for months
now by all those who advocate that worship is all about MUSIC and EXCELLENCE IN MUSICAL
PERFORMANCE and HOLY ENTERTAINMENT, that scriptural doctrine is no longer relevant among
“contemporary” Christian believers. In the end, for me this idea of “letting go” will have to
be my own decision.

Spurly, please read my post under the thread “Mammon-Controlled Church”; there is a prayer in
the post “Re: Reply to Donnie's Raving Against Tithing: (by Anonymous) August 30 2002, 12:03
PM." Part of the prayer is what you have suggested:

“Lord, please chastise Donnie for taking notes and for reporting the truth. You would not
want, Lord, for the world to know what’s happening at Madison so as to warn other
congregations what the change agents are about to do in disrupting and infiltrating those that
haven’t experienced such as yet. I know, Lord, that splitting Your church because of the
strange fire and incense being offered and because holy entertainment better than the truth of
the gospel is accommodating the needs of your contemporary believers. Lord, if possible, send
Ken [Sublett] to hell for his ability to reveal the truth from Your word and for reminding us
about valuable lessons in history -- lessons that warn us against the evils of idolatrous
worship because musical performance has become the central theme of our worship, instead of
teaching and admonishing each other and learning more of Your will for us.

“Please, Lord, reprimand Donnie and, if possible, send him somewhere away from Madison because
of what he thinks about our precious leaders.”

Donnie


  ===========================
Kevin Hamm


Which Bible? September 3 2002, 10:35 PM

Carol, can you tell me the chapter and verse on your quote "If any man has a song, let him
sing it"?

The only thing I can find close is this:

Jam 5:13 "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms."

Interestingly enough, this verse follows one that is relevant to the discussion on convenants
and oaths.

Jam 5:12 "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the
earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall
into condemnation."

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin



  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


re:“Oh, Carol, I’m But a Fool” in response to “Oh, my.” (by Carol) August 27 2002, 1:52 AM
August 28 2002, 11:45 AM

Mr. Cruz,
THIS ARTICLE IS EXCELLENT! I hope many people read this one thoroughly. You should put this
one out there as a discussion topic.

In Christian Humility with sincere appreciation,
Larry



  ===========================
Kristie

Observation September 3 2002, 10:34 AM

I notice that Mr. Donnie Cruz has pointedly ignored my post of 8/28/02 when I asked him to
answer 4 specific questions. However, looking over this entire site, I find a distinct pattern
set by both he and Mr. Sublett.

If they find even a partial phrase upon which they can seize to rant and bloviate, then rant
and bloviate they will with twists and turns aplenty.

If asked specifically worded (and often numbered for clarity) questions that might lend
themselves to succinct answers, then those questions are ignored and often that topic is
abandoned. The juggernaut of deception is a well-oiled machine, it seems.

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Observation September 3 2002, 12:15 PM

'Scuse me, Kristie.

When I hear the word bloviate I feel like I did walking the back streets of Hong Kong--Had to
take out time to wash my hands and mouth and apply an antiviral.

You have a grand way--you must be carefully taught--of ridiculing the Words quoted from Christ
as any baby boomer (infantile drummer) sockdolager.

While Jesus is trying to talk to you through the Word you fall into an unholy mini-affair with
the TEAMSTER and undoubtedly are one devoted to blustrification.

You seem goshbustified but I say that you are dumfungled and we are simply not interested in
doing self-speak.

Ken Sublett






  ===========================
Anonymous

Observation September 3 2002, 2:08 PM

Mr. Sublett, "gosh" is a derivative of the word "God." It is described by most English
teachers as a "euphemism." It is described by this English teacher as "taking the Lord's name
in vain."

  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Observation (by Anonymous) September 3, 2002, 2:08 PM September 6 2002, 3:53 AM

Re: Observation (by Anonymous) September 3, 2002, 2:08 PM

To a...nemesis:

I believe there are more Christians than English teachers, unless they are Christian English
teachers, who know that “gosh” is described as “taking the Lord’s name in vain.” I also
believe that Mr. Sublett himself has taught that lesson to many Christians, including English
teachers. Did he use the word “gosh” as an interjection or did he use the “sublettized” word
“goshbustified” as an adjective? Teach us more!

Donnie


  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Re: observations by Donnie September 6 2002, 3:35 PM

Thanks Donnie

I take it that teach has given up after getting it all wrong: that is why it is important to
KNOW THAM WORDS and history deemed so "perverted" by some.

I don't know "parts of speech" but I will relieve the suspicion of blasphemy. I just cannot
tolerate the drama of undisclosed but elevated scholarly dialog.

GOSHBUSTIFIED means "excessively pleased and gratified."

So, someone wasn't limited by Americaneze. I like that so well that I am goshbustified but not
yet dumfungled even if considered senile by a godly missonary!

Ken



  ===========================
Anonymous

Re: Re: observations by Donnie September 7 2002, 7:16 PM

I went to Websters' website (a recognized authority on words), and the words "goshbustified"
and "bustified" were not found. The word "gosh" was noted to be a derivative of the word
"God." If you can honestly tell me that the word "goshbustified" is not a combination of the
words "gosh" and what I assume is a colloquialism ("bustified"), then I will gladly withdraw
my comments. Otherwise, "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain," still
applies. Since I assume we all know the Author of that, who I am is a totally moot point.

I do not recall ever asserting that I or my writing was scholarly. In fact, I think it was
pretty simple. There are those on this site who certainly appear to fancy themselves superior
scholars. I am not one of them.

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


re: re: observations Any on BUSTS September 7 2002, 8:05 PM

Oh! Any, Any,

Why do you KEEP on writing about BUSTS? Do you have them on your MIND?

No. Annie, it WAS a real word, you will not find it on the search engine. It has nothing to do
with God.

If you will just confess that you don't know I will show you where to find it. Not until!

Any, did you know that the word god (ELOHIM) was a generic word: even Moses was a god
(Elohim). If I met Moses could I say, "Hay, Gosh"? How about one of those PILLARS up there:
could I say, you guys are using PHALLIC symbols as Gosh!!

Even the TRUE God said there were lots of gods. Could I say "gosh" to Inanna the PATTERN for
female worship leaders who specializes in DISCORDING BRETHREN?

Your trinitarian preacher would say that elohim in Genesis means GODS. Is that less
blasphemous than saying "gosh"? He would go TERMINAL by claiming that Father and Son god
created a holy mess and the Holy Spirit person had to come in and straighten it out. He would
know that in the feminist sense HOLY SPIRIT is female. Therefore, the Nashvile Wrecking Crew
claims that a lady had to straighten out the work product of the MASCULINE gods.

And that is the meaning of the ZOE and LOOK TO THE HILLS CONCEPT as feminist (not Christians)
think that they have figured out how to shut the mouth of the MALE GOD.

Therefore, the LORD or Jehovah says that He is the One and Only TRUE elohim and there there
ARE NO OTHER GODS with ME.

Therefore, the proper word to identify JESUS or JEHOVAH- SAVED is to call Him LORD. Now, gosh
has nothing to do with LORD. Oh, lordy, I've done it again and been judged by a lady who would
NOT remain SILENT which means remain SEDENTARY, exercises AUTHENTIA and violates the only
known INSPIRED DOCUMENT which informs the CHRISTIAN RELIGION.

You can graduate beyond the ONCE DELIVERED Word if you wish but when you do you cease to be a
Christian or DESCIPLE because Jesus didn't say "go make worshipers."

Now, if you really want to know I will tell you but you have made a false accusation WITHOUT a
remote clue. And that is called INFILTRATE AND DIVERT. Huh? But the Bible thumpers will not go
away and GOD knows your name but if you are a Lord, Lord sayer or take JAH's name in vain over
and over and over and over which is the meaning of "prophesying in his name" Jesus said: "God
doesn't KNOW you." Preside over "worship leading" proves it.

And did you know that those people who change their sign to:

------THE FAMILY OF GOD---------

Have stripped of the name of CHRIST and replaced it with a generic name for god which could
just as well fit on the sign of a Synagogue of Satan.

If you keep singing JAH, JAH, JAH, JAH (Donnie can count the ways) you are taking God's name
in vain and doing vain repititions. J'knoDat?

Ken Sublett





  ===========================
Anonymous

Re: re: re: observations Any on BUSTS September 11 2002, 5:00 PM

I didn't write about "busts" and have never filled my posts with the sexual inappropriateness
so liberally sprinkled through all of yours. I stand by my previous posts regarding the use of
the word "gosh" and how applicable God's command regarding his name is today.




  ===========================
ConcernedMembers


Forum Owner
Sublett Has Been Busted September 11 2002, 6:10 PM

Dear Anonymous;

I'm sure you will be glad to hear that Mr. Sublett was wrong about "goshbustified" not being
on Google.

It was on Google, and here it is;

Among those that haven't lasted the distance were blustrification (the action of celebrating
boisterously), goshbustified (excessively pleased and gratified), and dumfungled (used up).

http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-abs1.htm

  ===========================
Anonymous

Re: Sublett Has Been Busted September 12 2002, 7:50 PM

Thank you for the interesting website.

I really am not terribly concerned about what is or isn't said on Google (although I do find
the Websters site helpful). I do care what the Bible says, and mine (KJV) still says that we
are not to take the name of the Lord our God in vain.

I have done a good bit of research myself on the origin of the word "gosh." The best site I
found was: http://www.wordwizard.com. Every site that I found that discussed the origin of the
word said that it was a "mild" version of the word "God" used in place of "God" in statements
such as "Oh, my God." My eighth grade English handbook called "gosh" a euphemism used in place
of--you've got it--"God" with a capital.

I admit to somewhat limited knowledge of the Hebrew words for "God," but, in a nation where
people who say "Oh, my God" are most often referring to the God to whom I pray and where it
would appear that authorities on the subject agree that "gosh" is a derivative of the same
word used to refer to a specific "god," I still conclude that "gosh"--by itself, stuck in
front of another word for emphasis, or in any phrase--is, however mild it may be deemed by
nonchristian English experts, a form of taking the name of God Almighty in vain. There are
things in the Bible that I may not fully understand, but some of them are pretty plain.

I can use words just as big as those Mr. Sublett uses and do at times. I can revert to my
legitimate backwoods upbringing just as he does and may also do that at times. I am a
published author just as Mr. Sublett is. (I might even be a "man" just as Mr. Sublett is as I
have never disclosed my gender.) I could even resort to the completely inane practice of
belittling anything and everything anyone else says and refer to Mr. Sublett as Kenny or Kenny
Boy or Submarine or Subbasement or any number of cute, silly names or ugly innuendos like
those he uses, but I will not. I can also be wrong just like Mr. Sublett can. This time I
still don't think I am.

  ===========================
ConcernedMembers


Forum Owner
The End Of Goshbustified September 12 2002, 8:38 PM

In my humble opinion I think the evidence points to the word "gosh" as slang coming from the
archaic word "goshbustified"

The meaning is the same.

Time, history twisters, and debates like this have turned turned "gosh" into a "bad word".

It is certainly a bad word to use around those that are ignorant of the original word
"goshbustified". For these people it surely means God.

So I am going home tonight and explain the true meaning to my daughter. It has not been 20
days ago that I corrected her from using it.

I'm going to explain, that "gosh" is now a bad word and she still should not use it because
the ignorant like her dad think she is saying God. And for those people it's just as damming
as if she had actually said God.

Those of us that have learned what was intended (we don't know what we think we do sometimes),
will walk away smarter.

This is the end of the discussion, on "goshbustified".
No further post will be posted, unless they are real good!




This message has been edited by t on Sep 12, 2002 8:47 PM



  ===========================
Harold Stacey

Re: The end of Goshbustied September 14 2002, 1:37 PM

Mr. Moderator,
You said the conversation was over. But you let Donnie post a message on the subject on 9-14.
What's up? You change the rules to suit yourself? That's typical of the "Rules" of this site.
I ask you: What is fair about that? You advertise an open forum. Ain't so!

=====================
Message From The Moderator

Mr Stacey;
I think you are quoting out of context. If you re-read my statement, I think you will see the
qualification "Unless it's real good"

Who determines whether it's real good?
The Moderator

Mr. Stacey what are you so unhappy about? Do you want to say something about goshbustified?
Post it! If it's real good it will print, if it's just rant like the above it won't.



This message has been edited by t on Sep 14, 2002 1:59 PM



  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Sublett Has Been Busted (ConcernedMembers) September 11 2002, 6:10 PM September 14 2002,
3:00 AM

Moderator(s):

I have reviewed several times Kenneth Sublett’s response to Kristie’s “Observation” dated
September 3, 2002:

================================================
Kristie [of Mr. Cruz and Mr. Sublett]: “If they find even a partial phrase upon which they can
seize to rant and bloviate [speak or write overexpansively or with undue grandiosity], then
rant and bloviate they will with twists and turns aplenty.”
================================================

================================================
Kenneth Sublett [to Kristie]: “You have a grand way -- you must be carefully taught -- of
ridiculing the Words quoted from Christ as any baby boomer (infantile drummer) sockdolager [a
decisive blow]. While Jesus is trying to talk to you through the Word you fall into an unholy
mini-affair with the TEAMSTER and undoubtedly are one devoted to blustrification [the action
of celebrating boisterously]. You seem goshbustified [excessively pleased and gratified] but I
say that you are dumfungled [used up] and we are simply not interested in doing self-speak.”
================================================

The English teacher has not responded to my question: “Did he use the word “gosh” as an
interjection or did he use the … word “goshbustified” as an adjective?” In fact, Mr. Sublett
NEVER mentioned the WORD “gosh”; how could he have taken the Lord’s name in vain? The word
“goshbustified” was only one of THOSE words that he used without the intention to further
obfuscate the way that Kristie [correctly] used the word “bloviate.” There is no reason
anymore why anyone should be discombobulated.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie Cruz

  ===========================
Kristie

Oh, no, excuse me.e.e. September 3 2002, 2:38 PM

KS: When I hear the word bloviate I feel like I did walking the back streets of Hong Kong--Had
to take out time to wash my hands and mouth and apply an
antiviral.

......Perhaps you should research the word bloviate. (I do use English words correctly and in
context and do not just troll GOOGLE for obscure terms to fling into a post as you do).

Or failing that, it would be REFRESHING if you WOULD wash your mouth and hands and liberally
apply an antiviral before posting some of the things you do on this site.

........I have no idea who the "TEAMSTER" is (another of your hidden buzz words that would
require an interpreter and thus would qualify as speaking in tongues which I DO NOT DO)......
but I never ridicule the Word of God. I spend time studying it, in fact, both the Old
Testament and the New Testament. Today, I have spent some time studying Matthew 7. I would
recommend that text for anyone. I don't need Dionysius, Homer, or any other outside source for
my salvation. The Holy Bible is sufficient, thank you.

P.S. Thanks for proving my prior point so quickly. Questions 1-4 still remain to be answered.



  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Observation (by Kristie) September 3 2002, 10:34 AM September 3 2002, 5:53 PM

Re: Observation (by Kristie) September 3 2002, 10:34 AM

Kristie:

I’m sorry that I have disappointed you [for the time being] for “pointedly” ignoring your
post. The truth of the matter is that I’d been planning seriously on responding ever since I
read your post of (seems like) several days ago. It did get my attention, and it just wouldn’t
make me feel right to completely ignore it.

I’m not making excuses. But let me say that I was wondering if you were the owner of the
famous Kristie Kookies Enterprises, since you didn’t completely identify yourself. I also
thought you were addressing your post to Carol, instead of to me, although you made references
to my name. Too, you presented your “negative” arguments against me in a concise manner, and I
was simply going to let the readers draw their own conclusions. Finally, unless you’re a
retired person and I’m assuming that you’re not, I have to work to make a living too - that
takes precedence over my other tasks.

Kristie, I’m not promising much, but please be patient. When I get a chance after work, which
probably means pretty late tonight, I will try to compose a post in response to your well-
thought-out series of questions. Hopefully, it will get posted tomorrow.

Thanks for your concern,

Donnie


  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


U R xcuzed September 3 2002, 11:41 PM

If you will translate you will get a real message, Kristie Kreme.

For your information, "the Holy Spirit" has a name: it is Jesus. And the Father has a name, it
is Jesus. And the Son has a name, it is Jesus. The Shema says that there is just ONE GOD,
Isaiah says that there is just ONE GOD and Jesus affirmed that the Shema was correct: there is
still only ONE GOD. And it is hallucinating of the RIDERS OF THE WRINKLED WIDOWS that they are
guided not by the OT Jehovah, not by the Biblical Jesus but the POSTMODERN (Us) junior member
of the God family or tribe. That is blasphemy. But it lets FOOLERS do an end run around God
and YOU by making you believe--and pay for it--that they are "evangelists chosen and equipped
by the sovereign grace of God." Some are peer-recognized as 13th apostles. But Paul said that
"fools love to be fooled."

Don't expect the African "little man (spirit) to jump around in the big man (you)." Jesus said
MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE.

Now, Matthew 7: I judge based on the Bible and declare that to teach tithing is lying and that
rimes with dying. To submit to tithing is to repudiate Father, Son and Spirit whose name
(singular) is Jesus Christ.

I will stand in judgment based on being OT literate, fastest one in the slow group, nursery
101aaa to tell you that doing singy-clappy is smacking Jesus in the teeth at the "foot of the
old rugged cross." The Judas Bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and if
you want to become Classical period literate you can actually see the fellas performing.

Modern praise songs have been declassified as music because of the emasculating, effeminizing
influence. And non-Biblical hymns have been identified as "low level glossolalia." So, if you
are being transported by the TEAM (real or imagined) then you are speaking in tongues,
repudiating the Words of Christ which Paul demanded as the ONLY resource for teaching in
"singing."

Yes, you speak in tongues if you follow the leader into hand clapping which, as I have noted,
is related to "spitting in the face" or "driving a tent peg into the head of a SLEEPING man."

Don't do CIRCLES Kristie: check on the meaning of the GILGAL and the CHORAL dance of Dionysus
the queer priests tried to force onto Jesus. The "emerging church" is defined in terms right
out of the WITCHCRAFT liturgy.

And don't do LIVING STONES, Kristie, just junk picked up on Google and seems heavily loaded to
homosexual groups and those who hallucinate that they have the Holy Spirit as a "person" in
their carnal body. It is idolatry to pick up magical terms like HALAL which means "to make
yourself vile" or ZOE who is the "beast" or "female instructing principle" or A Cappella which
speaks of the pope's castrated TEAM

Tell your fellow traveler that I don't want to hear her say GOSHen or GOSHawk. Tell her about
euphemisms such as "Jazz" or "Rock and Roll." "Praise singing" in the ancient world meant
about the same thing in seeking to seduce the gods.

Rubel Shelly said that they were gonna build a VENUE FOR PERFORMING ROCK AND ROLL. I think
that is what is transpiring in the Holy Place with charismatic "praise leading" and that is
why he is USED just like they did in ancient Greece. Have you heard of changing church from
school of the Bible to "theater for holy entertainment". It is the revival of Gnosticism and
is not REMOTELY similar to Christianity.

If you don't understand Dionysus you wont understand why Paul outlawed music in Rome and
commanded that they "glorify God with one voice by speaking That which is written." The ZOE
group and the PILLARS you guys love as projections of phallic power are DIONYSIC worship.
Dionysus was the god of NEW WINE and therefore the father of NEW WINESKINS. ANY scheme, buzz
word or PROGRAM which you add puts one more layer between you and God and THAT is the
intention. These programs and symbols and MAKE WORK schemes are IDOLS because they take your
mind off Jesus and His word and THAT is the plan.

Paul understood Homer you may want to know about the MAD WOMEN, uncovered prophesiers in
Corinth (just down the coast from Delphi). And if you don't understand Homer you will hear
Paul commending the Corinthians rather than mercilessly ridiculing them. That is why Paul
informed the women that CHURCH was not their old pagan religion dominated by women and that is
why everyone sat down and shut up becuase church was SCHOOL.

If the Scriptures are sufficient then why do you DO church where the Bible is ridiculed by
"sermonizing" and the prescribed WORDS of Christ are ridiculed by human "versifying" and the
Word of God is ridiculed by end-time self-help or taking the kids into CANAAN LAND by
"classifying". I say that Scripture has been booted from most churches with unlawful and often
ungodly STANDERS UP in pulpits when the Incarnate God of the universe had the common decency
to READ THE WORD AS IT WAS WRITTEN and then SIT DOWN.

If you give up translating I will give you the meanings which don't have to be trolled up. And
teacher don't kno the meaning of them word.

Ken


  ===========================
Kevin Hamm


You're too much September 3 2002, 10:11 PM

Your post is a perfect example of boviating.



  ===========================
Eddie Williams

Kristie, You are correct September 4 2002, 12:38 PM

I too have asked specific questions that remain unanswered. Some are in a private e-mail to
Bobby Johnson. This post probably will not make the cut, because nothing I have sent lately
has. (They advertise: This is an open forum. Greek translation: BULL!)
Anyway, I like your style. I believe these people are not capable of answering ANY question
without putting a mumbo-jumbo spin on the answer. I also believe they don't like me very much.
My suggestion is this: GET OVER IT! I've heard that somewhere before?
I also believe the Gospel of Jesus is far more simple than these people at this web-site are
capable of comprehending. Have you noticed they have all the answers, and are really not
interested in hearing what anyone else has to say. They only use the opposing views to create
another argument. In other words they are over-educated and trying to over-engineer what is
very simple.
"Love one another"

Definitely in need of GOD'S Grace

Eddie


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Kristie, You are correct (by Eddie Williams) September 4 2002, 12:38 PM September 7 2002,
5:53 AM

Re: Kristie, You are correct (by Eddie Williams) September 4 2002, 12:38 PM

Eddie, you were missed. Welcome back!!!

--- Thank the moderator(s) for posting your “Kristie, you are correct” message.
--- Please resubmit those “asked specific questions that remain unanswered.”
--- Please resubmit your recent posts; make sure they pass the code of conduct.
--- The gospel of Christ is simple - you’re FINALLY convinced that it is…
--- But your “corporate” worship is too complex and commercialized.
--- No doubt your concert-oriented worship would dumfound the first century Christians.
--- No doubt the early Christians assembled to learn God’s will (Acts 20:7).
--- No doubt the early Christians assembled to “break bread” (Acts 20:7).
--- No record of the early Christians making MUSIC a top priority, if at all.
--- The early Christians would more likely say to THE WORSHIP LEADER…
--- Say what? “GET OVER IT unless someone interprets your MUSIC to us!”

Donnie


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Thank you, Carol, for your perspective (by Kristie) August 28 2002, 2:02 PM September 4
2002, 1:49 PM

Re: Thank you, Carol, for your perspective (by Kristie) August 28 2002, 2:02 PM

Kristie:

Before I begin, let me remind you and other readers that the many, many messages posted on the
ConcernedMembers site since its inception have dealt with doctrinal matters and issues that
are consistent with those that have been taught and practiced in churches of Christ for years
and years BEFORE the advent of the modern-day Charismatic and Community Church Movements.
These messages are consistent with the biblical principles that the pioneers (Thomas and
Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone and others) of the Restoration Movement stood for --
principles that have withstood the test of time until the introduction of instrumental music
that eventually led to the split in the church. Remember what is now known as the
[instrumentalist but dwindling] Christian Church group? These are the same scriptural
principles adhered to by churches of Christ that have withstood the test of time again since
UNTIL the current/recent wave [WARNING!] of the Charismatic Movement imitation infiltrating,
intruding and perverting the targeted churches of Christ.

Simple logic should tell us, then, that based on that premise, it is not what has been
ORIGINALLY believed and practiced that needs to be checked and validated to see IF IT IS NEW
DOCTRINE. But rather that WHATEVER is BEING INTRODUCED and IMPLEMENTED OR INCORPORATED into
the churches of Christ MUST be evaluated in terms of the possibility or lack of its previous
existence. Therefore, in regard to a specific doctrine or practice, either (1) it is NOTHING
NEW or (2) it is SOMETHING NEW and/or INNOVATIVE. So, let us be honest with ourselves in this
regard. It just DOES NOT make sense at all that those who ADVOCATE CHANGES are the ONES
claiming that those that have stood by ORIGINAL principles are the ONES who are inconsistent.
IT SHOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!! The truth of the matter is that the NEW models or designs
for worship and church growth, as well as DOCTRINES foreign [or “USED TO BE” FOREIGN] to the
churches of Christ are BORROWED, IMITATED, STEMMING and ORIGINATING from the Saddleback or
Charismatic Church Movements, Seventh-Day Adventism and various denominational groups and
ISMS. These are THE MATTERS AND ISSUES that need to be evaluated for their scriptural bases.

May I ask the reader to review these two paragraphs above? IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND THAT
SIMPLE! The ConcernedMembers site is here to help ensure that the church of our Lord remains
consistent with the Scriptures in its beliefs, that it is not being [further] corrupted by man-
made dogmas, and that is not being infiltrated by change agents and advocates with their
secular ideas to IMPROVE UPON God’s set of standards for His family, the church. Please do NOT
be misled into thinking that SINCERITY in a Christian’s devotion and reverence in worship is
the main criterion for doctrinal purity. After all, we cannot discredit the SINCERITY that the
Roman Catholics and the Muslims and the Buddhists, Shinto followers, and followers of various
cults have in regard to their objects of worship.

==================================================
KRISTIE RE: OWNERS/MODERATORS AND DONNIE’S PERCEPTIONS:
==================================================
[[[You will not find: 1. That the owners or moderators currently attend any worship services
at Madison Church of Christ, though may still claim to be members.
2. The only direct source of information that is given any vocal approval is Mr. Donnie Cruz,
who attends apparently only on Sunday mornings and who only reports anything negative he
perceives (there are people baptized into Christ virtually every week, but you won't hear
about THAT!)]]]
==================================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE RESPONDS:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kristie, what are you REALLY saying about the owners and moderators owning and moderating?
What does your statement have anything to do with this website warning other congregations of
the church of Christ to not be victimized by infiltrators and intruders who have created havoc
at Madison, causing hundreds of its members to emigrate? Are you one of those unable to accept
the reality at Madison?

I hope that your attendance at all the gatherings and participation in all the ministries is
all together EXCEEDING the righteousness of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Your “positive”
reporting is commendable but repetitive, especially since the Marcher, the preacher and you
brag about the number of baptisms every week -- as if this had not been happening before and
is only happening now. Did you forget about the hundreds that were told to “GET OVER IT” and
driven away? Let’s do some simple math: how many of those several hundred members have been
recovered or replaced by the new converts? Wasn’t the objective of the Saddleback model to
appeal to the crowd and bring in new members by the hundreds or thousands, more especially the
young people? But instead, many senior saints who tried to stand by those scriptural
principles mentioned earlier and could IN NO WAY contemporarily make the adjustments or live
up to the expectations of the youth’s vigor and demands for the HARD ROCK version of
Christianity had no choice but to go somewhere else and be with those of kindred mind and
spirit?

In response to YOUR statements about what “you will find” on this website (please, reader,
refer to Kristie’s two numbered items on August 28, 2002). Yes, I’ll admit to the (1)
“unlimited criticism of the … song (or worship) leader and the worship services.” In order to
prove or disprove Kristie’s concern over these criticisms, please read the various posts
mentioning such topics under other threads BECAUSE there are valid and scriptural reasons for
such criticisms of THE WORSHIP LEADER of the Madison contemporary believers … too numerous to
repeat here. The same is true with the preacher, but to a much lesser extent. It’s only been
recently that the preacher has obviously perverted the truth about tithing required of the
Israelites for the Levitical priesthood while equating that to Christian liberal giving based
on prosperity and on the needs of the destitute. I’ll admit to the (2) “lengthy dissertations
from numerous historical writings.” However, do not forget the lengthy scriptural references.
BOTH sides are available for your learning. Remember the “comparison and contrast” stuff that
we learned in school? Same thing here!

==================================================
KRISTIE QUOTES DONNIE QUITE EXTENSIVELY
==================================================
Please refer to Kristie’s list as posted on August 28, 2002 for the following:

--- “Donnie Cruz quote from 8/21/02 ‘I Am Saddened … are we playing catch-up?’”
--- “Donnie Cruz 8/21/02: … the WORSHIP LEADER … idolized … connects.”
--- “Donnie Cruz 8/23/02: Here’s to clarify the objective of the survey …”
--- “Donnie Cruz: … really watch the behavior of your WORSHIP LEADER on stage”

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE: “WHAT CAN I SAY? PLEASE READ EACH POST IN ITS ENTIRETY. LET THE READER DECIDE.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

==================================================
KRISTIE’S 4 QUESTIONS:
==================================================

==================================================
Question #1: Who expects the Holy Spirit to have direct influence on "us" and how was this
done? I know I have not been sleeping during worship and I sure missed that one.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Answer #1: You must not be awake when you sing the song “Sweet, Sweet Spirit” or when Chris
Gingles’ shepherd’s prayer says, “… may we be filled with the Holy Spirit” or “may the Holy
Spirit [in person] direct our lives.” Also, pay attention to the leaders on stage saying, “We
surely feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in our midst” after a marvelous performance by the
praise team. Is it possible that you have gotten so accustomed to hearing such statements
expressed that they have no effect on you anymore? You appear to not believe in the Holy
Spirit having direct influence upon the Christian. So, what is really your view on this
matter? Just in case I’ve been hearing these things incorrectly, please review other posts on
this site that deal with the views of prominent Charismatic (that’s sad!) church of Christ
leaders, namely: Rubel Shelly of Woodmont Hills Family, Max Lucado from Texas, Dr. Kregg Hood
(author of the manual on “tithing” that Dr. Bruce White preached on), Don Finto of the Belmont
Church (this man “speaks in tongues”), and others. These are leaders in the brotherhood that
the Madison leaders LOOK UP TO for charismatic influences, guidance and counseling.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

==================================================
Question #2: Experience the power of performing miracles and speaking in tongues? I DEFINITELY
have not seen or heard any indication of that at Madison. Just to be sure I was not totally
out of sync, I asked several current members if I had missed something and I have been present
at MOST worship services at Madison for a long time. The people I talked to were as
incredulous as I was at that claim. If that was not made up totally out of thin air, I would
be astonished. Do you have ANY facts to substantiate such a wild claim?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Answer #2: Please refer to the answer to Question #1. Also, Dr. White has preached a sermon
related to the issue on “performing miracles.” He stated, and I made a note of it for myself
(contrary to the accusation that I take notes to play “detective” or spy on the activities).
He stated that the healing miracles PERFORMED [by Charismatic televangelists or faith healers]
as we see them on TV can be equated to and are not any different from the healing that takes
place when a sick member asks an elder to pray for or from the healing of a family member
taking place in the home. Ask Dr. White about it. As far as speaking in tongues goes, ask
Chris Gingles if he believes in that and/or if he has actually done it in private, if not in
public. If not, ask him if he sees nothing wrong with it or if it is real whenever it is being
experienced. If not, ask him if he knows of leaders of other congregations or in the
brotherhood that believe and practice it. Ask him if he would do it in public if there were no
subsequent repercussion or objection or feeling of disbelief on the part of the witnesses. So,
such claims may not be that wild after all. Again, you appear to not believe in such strange
doctrines. That’s good! But you have not been consulting with right individuals.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

==================================================
Question #3: Tithing for the Levitical priesthood being ENFORCED upon N.T. Christians? Come
on! How on earth could tithing be enforced? Lessons on giving are nothing new, but I am sure
the ACLU or someone of their ilk would be around fast as lightning if "forced tithing" were
even whispered about.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Answer #3: Did you get a copy of the tithing manual by Dr. Kregg Hood? Did you not carefully
listen to Dr. White’s series of sermons on the subject? Please review the various posts under
the Timeline thread and other threads relating to tithing. I am afraid that many church
members like you are getting confused and misled into thinking and believing that tithing for
the Levitical priesthood and the Christian’s liberality for the destitute are the same!!! You
are right that lessons on giving are nothing new, as you said. However, liberal giving as one
has been prospered is NOT AT ALL the same as the required tithing of [what?] items (not cash,
but sheep, fruit, land, etc.) upon [of whom?] the Israelites for [whom?] the Levitical priests
that served. Kristie, you really need to review various posts on tithing [that you may have
ignored because you have been concentrating too much on worship issues].
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

==================================================
Question #4: Be honest -- would you consider anything as worship other than a solemn-faced man
announcing the hymn number from your own list of preapproved "song books," and barely lifting
a hand to indicate when the congregation was "allowed" to begin singing a pre-designated
number of songs?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Answer #4: I have never said anything about songs are necessarily worship material just
because they are included in a songbook, although chances are GREATER that you would find many
of them in a songbook than you would from other compilations of songs from commercially-
oriented Christian ROCK artists or from TBN (Televised Blasphemers Network [according to
Patricia Cole]). Nick Boone did a great job leading singing without the aid or performance of
a praise team, even the learning of NEW songs, did he not? Nick did not insult the musically
literate individuals, did he? You see … these musically literate individuals do not have to
LISTEN TO THE PRAISE TEAM FIRST and ECHO-SING WHAT THEY HAVE JUST HEARD, do they? You see,
individuals can look at the entire song on a page of hymnbook with the notes to read and have
a better grasp of the meaning of the entire song, rather than have their intelligence insulted
by looking at the big white screen with a line or two or words and phrases displayed at a
given time. Nick Boone did not cause the uproar because he simply led or started the singing
and did not make MUSIC OR MUSICAL PERFORMANCE OR HOLY MUSICAL ENTERTAINMENT his top priority,
did he? You see, Nick was satisfied with his being able to lead or start singing and he did
not want to stress the HIGH AND HOLY significance of being THE WORSHIP LEADER with the man-
designated “heavenly” calling or responsibility of “CALLING US [the LOWLY FOLLOWERS] TO
WORSHIP.” Honestly, where is your attention directed to during [what’s supposedly called]
singing worship? Is your mind more on the emotional aspect (not that we should be emotionless)
rather than on the object of singing, which is to “teach and admonish one another in psalms
and hymns and spiritual songs”? How much admiration do you have for the excellence of the
praise team’s performance as they dominate the MUSIC business FOR the congregation? What are
your thoughts about Keith Lancaster’s musical talent as he delivers that “CONNECTION” between
“Thee and us, Thy children” and with each other? You were probably right when you said, “In
particular, I get the distinct impression that nothing less than Keith Lancaster being boiled
in oil would satisfy your need to denigrate him.” Let me add, though, that he’d better start
thinking and being convinced that had he not been given that much control and power as THE
WORSHIP LEADER by the LEADERS OF THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST, the church’s upheaval would not
have occurred. Thanks to Keith for his major contribution in that regard!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am sad, you are sad, and the brotherhood is sad, to see that the Madison congregation no
longer sits on the hill as a shining example. But PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Do not blame that on
ConcernedMembers and its contributors. This website’s was not even conceived at the time that
Madison was experiencing a spiritual nervous breakdown and collapse!!! Simply because the
LEADERS had refused to let the Almighty God rule! The contemporary initiatives and bending
spiritual truths to accommodate contemporary needs proved to be overwhelming to the leaders.
To this day, they have not publicly and sincerely asked for God’s forgiveness and guidance.
You know, a return to the “old paths” JUST MIGHT bring those saints back to the fold -- IF THE
LEADERS ARE REALLY CONCERNED AND INTERESTED. A verbal announcement that “we love each other
and are trying to worship in spirit and in truth without causing anyone to stumble” is an
oversimplification of issues and it just doesn’t work. You can say all day long, “We do love
the Lord with all our hearts and are trying to worship in harmony” … it is a statement that
contemporary believers love to say and want others to believe. Sorry, they do not practice it.
In the final analysis, those INNOVATIONS (and many contemporary believers are not convinced
that such) are just NOT WORTH THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE BODY OF CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!
==================================================
Donnie


  ===========================
Kristie (Kookie or Kreme--your choice)

Thanks for answering September 4 2002, 3:34 PM

Dear Donnie:
Thanks for finally answering the original questions.

And you and Mr. S. can call me Kristie Kookie or Kristie Kreme or whatever you wish. My only
regret is that I don't have the money those folks do so I could give more of it to do the work
at Madison Church of Christ, not because I am forced to (listening and digesting a sermon is a
lo.o.ong way from being forced), but because I see every day the fruits of giving working in
the lives of those who need it.

Regarding my stand on praise, worship and the holy spirit, this is the simplest I can state it
from the book of Luke:
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with
you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the
prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise
from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations,
beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of
Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into
heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

I think verse 45 lets us know that the Holy Spirit guides us in our understanding of His word
whether we are able to study 16 hours a day with an IQ of 140 or above or are just simple
sinners trying to do what is "right." Verses 52 and 53 pretty well address the praise issue,
too. I sometimes wonder if the people lifted their hands in response to receive his blessing
(verse 50) but I won't debate that with you or anyone else....let's just all work that out for
ourselves, okay?

One of my adult children said something to me recently that gave me great joy and was so
profound I would like to share it. "Mom, I am really glad that you and Dad taught us by
example that the Bible was given to us as a blueprint for our lives, not as a weapon to be
used to hurt others." Hearing that gave me one of the best moments I have ever had as a
parent.

Praise teams, worship leaders, sermons I like and sermons I don't: All of that is but a part
of what makes up Madison Church of Christ. I trust the holy spirit to lead me to what I need
and protect me from what I don't. What I do find at Madison that I really do not want to be
without is this: Being part of the bigger picture where when I meet a family that is about to
lose their home due to circumstances beyond their control, meeting a new family where none of
the members know the Lord but are having a medical crisis and know they need something bigger
to rely on, watching elderly people receive a hot meal that they are unable to cook for
themselves, seeing people go into the benevolence center with despair on their faces and come
out with bags of food and clothing and relief replacing the despair. --- By myself I could do
little to alleviate any of the above scenarios. Combined with my brothers and sisters at
Madison, I can and WILL CONTINUE to make a huge difference in the lives of those people and I
KNOW that is what Jesus would have me do!
I have grieved for those who became so angry and confused over what they feared were changes
that took them away from their comfort zones, changes they just "felt" were wrong and rather
than actually study together, they walked away in anger when they could have stayed and
"reasoned together," thus missing out on the blessings that continue. I am quite sure that
some of them regret it and I pray that they will eventually return.

I am not going to end with a mock prayer. I am terribly saddened when I see those appear here.
I am going to pray sincerely for you, for me, and for all those in need of God's blessings and
sorely in need of less condemnation from those we should be able to call brother and sister.


  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett

Re: Thanks for answering September 5 2002, 4:21 PM

It really gets under my skin when someone assumes that I left the (Church at Madison) because
I was angry and confused. That does make me angry. This is because many others who have chosen
not to Worship there anymore, I know personally are extremely giving, loving and VERY
SPIRITUAL Christians who had been attending there, I'm sure, much longer than you. My "Comfort
Zone", as if this is even relevant, when it comes to the Worship Service of the ("Church of
Christ") is based on what the Bible teaches, (and this is not always word for word, but
exemplified) about SPIRIT, TRUTH, UNITY and PEACE, and not some physical or artificial
stimulant practiced or performed. Some other things that are exemplified and practiced, all
throughout the Bible, that are very important, are HUMILITY and RESPECT. I have personally
witnessed a lack of a lot of that.
Look all these words up in the dictionary and compare the definitions to what is being
influenced and projected in and by your worship service.

In Christian Humility and Sicerity,

Larry

  ===========================
Lawrence N. Bennett


Re: Re: Thank you, Carol, for your perspective (by Kristie) August 28 2002, 2:02 PM September
5 2002, 1:05 PM

Mr. Cruz,
This was a pleasure to read. Another great artcle.


  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Re? September 5 2002, 2:41 PM

Donnie, I tried to tell the forum that Kregg Hood who is their AUTORITY for tithing and the
restoration of the Jewish legalistic system, yearns for real RAISING OF THE DEAD. And he
alludes to his African friends. Therefore,I thought that it was interesting that a black
correspondent observes that the jungle has about consumed black churches which are mimiced by
white churches. He posted this article which is too long:

Not All Praise New Focus in Black Churches

Neo-Pentecostalism Stirs Debate as It Builds Mega-Congregations

By JOHN RIVERA, THE BALTIMORE SUN

BALTIMORE -- Like a sea of humanity, nearly 20,000 swaying and singing worshipers packed the
Baltimore Convention Center, transforming the exhibition hall into a tent revival.

The organ pumped, an electric bass drove the gospel beat and a massed choir raised its voices
in praise. The churchgoers rose as one, hands clapping, arms raised, some jumping up and down
in an ecstatic dance of the Holy Spirit.

The recent national convention of the Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship attracted
Baptists, Methodists and others who a decade ago would have worshiped in the confines of their
own denominations. It was a sign that a once-renegade movement in the African American church
called neo-Pentecostalism--which combines a powerful mix of spirit-filled worship and a
philosophy of black empowerment--has come of age.

Once confined to storefront sanctuaries and a handful of Pentecostal denominations, it has
been increasingly embraced by the elite black churches of Baptists and Methodists. It is
reviving congregations and creating mega-churches.

"Our pastor is truly anointed," Mashawn Phillips, 34, said of the Rev. Jamal-Harrison Bryant,
pastor of Empowerment Temple AME Church in West Baltimore, which has grown from nothing to
more than 2,500 members in two years. "I've done a 360-[degree] turnaround with things that
went on in my life, and it's all because of his teaching and preaching."

Scholars who study the black church consider neo-Pentecostalism and the rise of the black mega-
church the most significant trends in decades.

A conservative estimate is that one-third of mainline black churches--Baptist and Methodist--
have embraced neo-Pentecostalism; that's about 5 million people. Perhaps more significant is
that nearly all the black mega-churches (those with more than 2,000 members) are neo-
Pentecostal.

But the success of neo-Pentecostalism has prompted debate about the nature and mission of the
black church.

Longtime heroes of the civil rights movement express grave concerns that church-based social
activism is being cast aside by the new emphasis on entertaining worship services, which they
deride as "shake and bake," and by the creation of a cult of celebrity preachers.

"If we're going to survive in this country, the only way is through church activism that
identifies with the poor," said the Rev. Vernon Dobson, pastor for more than 30 years of Union
Baptist Church in West Baltimore, which has a century-old tradition of civil rights activism.

"My fear is that somebody will get the wrong message and see church as celebrating rather than
serving," Dobson said. "Never shout any higher than you can serve. Shout all you want. But let
it be measured by your service."

Neo-Pentecostal services have many variations, but three important elements are
characteristic: professionally performed music that will bring a congregation to its feet;
dynamic and inspiring preaching; and a sense of freedom in the congregation to respond as the
spirit moves--shouting, clapping, dancing, speaking in tongues, healing and a sort of swoon
known as being "slain in the spirit."

"Miracles still happen," said Barbara Wiley, an elementary school principal who attends a Full
Gospel church in Erie, Pa. "People are being healed; people are being delivered from
oppression, drug abuse, sickness--all by the power of the Holy Ghost."

The roots of neo-Pentecostalism lie in the Pentecostal movement that formed early in the last
century, introduced to the world on a large scale by the Azusa Street Revival, an interracial,
headline-grabbing religious phenomenon that began in 1906 in Los Angeles.

For most of the last century, Pentecostalism was limited to a handful of denominations, such
as the mostly white Assemblies of God and the principally black Church of God in Christ, as
well as smaller storefront churches of the urban black underclass.

But the more influential churches of the black middle class and elites demurred, clinging to a
more restrained style of worship closer to that of the traditional European churches.

Pentecostalism began creeping into mainline Protestant and Catholic churches in the 1960s
under a movement that described itself as "Charismatic." About that time, John Bryant, a young
black man who grew up in West Baltimore's Bethel AME Church, became intrigued by the
possibilities of "spirited" worship. After a stint in the Peace Corps in Africa and as a
minister in Cambridge, Mass., Bryant came home, where he took over the Bethel pulpit and
established it as a catalyst for black neo-Pentecostalism.

"I began to minister and preach a combination of a spiritual emphasis with a call to minister
to the whole person, to speak on issues of justice, liberation and empowerment," Bryant said.

The people responded, and the congregation grew to 6,500 by the time he was elected bishop in
1988.

Similar mega-church stories can be told in Los Angeles. One of them, Faithful Central Bible
Church, grew from 200 members to 10,000 in two decades under the leadership of Bishop Kenneth
C. Ulmer--a size so grand the church two years ago purchased the Forum for its services.

A national survey shows that fewer than 10% of black churches can be considered activist
congregations, frequently lobbying public officials or participating in political advocacy.

"We seem to find there is a small cohort of activist churches at the forefront of public
policy where African American churches have been involved," said the Rev. R. Drew Smith of
Morehouse College in Atlanta, director of a long-term study of black churches.

Neo-Pentecostal pastors say their activism lies closer to home. Using biblical imagery, they
say the generation of civil rights activists that had the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. as their
Moses was led from the spiritual slavery of segregation and Jim Crow laws. But this
generation, they maintain, has entered into the promised land.

"These are ministers who wish to close the gap between the two kingdoms [of man and God] and
establish God's kingdom to the best of their ability here on Earth," said Robert L. Franklin,
president of Atlanta's Inter-Denominational Theological Center, a consortium of six
predominantly black seminaries. "The best antidote to poverty is not to be a poor person."

Most charismatic music and worship--even the Greek--flowed out of Africa and is the adoption
of the most superstitious of practices.

The Holy Spirit has a name: it is Jesus Christ. Jesus refused to get seduced by the same
Dionysus (out of Africa) singing and dancing in a CIRCLE. This was really having a sexual
experience with their god of the new wineskin. Jesus don't sing, dance, clape or do boogy
woogy or rock and role--doing sex with the sisters. Truly the slaves have captured the new
plantations called MEGA-CHURCHES.

Ken Sublett


  ===========================
Jeff Day


Mr. Sublett...you seem to have a problem... September 5 2002, 11:00 PM

Mr. Sublett. In many of your posts you mention sex and relate that to worship somehow. Do you
have an issue here that we need to deal with in prayer? I do think that your sexual comments
have no place in this forum or anywhere else. Relating worship to sex is a blasphemy to God
and an intended (i am sure) put down to those that have differing opinions than you do in
worship practices. I am asking you nicely to and in a loving manner to PLEASE cease and desist
making this comparison. It is unbiblical, not to mention that your sources you use
PREDOMINANTLY are not the Bible.

Also, you have recently made many RACIST comments. This to is unbiblical.

GRACE and PEACE.

Jeff

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Mr. Sublett has a problem: gay troubadours September 6 2002, 2:00 PM

I used to have to warn my middle daughter against eating slugs.

Jeffy would say: "Mr. Sublett you must like to eat slugs."

Jeffy must be in psych 101aaaa with a failing grade.

Soooo. What SHALT I DOETH? I know, I am being manipulated with psychological violence. So, I
will just follow Jesus and "just fade away" NOT.

If you guys and dolls will quit doing it in public then Mr. Sublett will cease warning you
that history warns the LITERATE world to laugh AT you rather than laugh WITH you:

"Philodemos considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods
while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as
self-deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition
induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit. (Paul called
it mad or insane)

-------He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and EFFEMINATE men fell into
this folly."

"According to Philo, the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men. For the sake of a
better effect, and with the intention of more easily CHEATING their devotes, that they have
set their LIES to melodies, rhythms and meters.." (Quasten, p. 52)

Jeffy is MAD because of my pointing out from the BIBLE that it is a LIE to make LOOK TO THE
HILLS into a positive command rather than a resounding NO. Read the article and see that LOOK
TO THE HILLS is built on the same lie as TITHING. A new version is here:

http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html

In addition, for the readers, I have added a link to the Baal Epic to show just who the
MOUNTAIN GOD was.

http://www.piney.com/BaalEpic.html

When your rage cools down I will point you to the 100% Biblical evidence that MUSIC was the
cause or punishment for the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai: Yes, rising up to play includes
sexuality and homosexuality. The end time Babylon Whore religion will be a mixture of music,
commerce and false religion.

No, Jeffy, it is a lie to say that I have said anything racist. My recent quotes are from a
BLACK correspondent whose Biblical knowledge would make your TITHING errorist look like a
kindergarten drop-out. He says that anyone who would teach tithing is a Satanic Liar! And
anyone who would tithe as having repudiated Messiah. Sounds pretty racists, Jeffy.

Jeffy, if I tell you not to stir up a stink by throwing cow patties in church, don't make
yourself look silly by accusing me of being addicted to cow patties. Ok?

Ken, who would wash and visit my doctor if I came into a room of music and theatrical
performers look for BAAL who is the mountain God. Anat, was the holy whore WHO figured out how
to get UP there.


This message has been edited by t on Sep 6, 2002 3:14 PM


  ===========================
Joe McKnight

Problems with Sex September 7 2002, 11:39 AM

Jeff
Ken's problem with sex is that it is one of the most powerful gifts that God gave us,
therefore it is the most powerful tool that Satan uses again us. That is why God deal with it
so strongly with laws on how to use it and what purpose it is to be used for. This Church age
has done such a poor job of teaching that we don't understand sex, therefore we don't
understand all the ways that Satan uses it against us. Sir, for you to try to silence Ken on
his teaching of sex make me believe you are an agent of Satan. Sex is a very deep subject and
I am glad to see someone shedding some light on the subject. The true problem is no one is
awake.

To God Be the Glory
Joe McKnight

P.S. Sleep on, 2/3rds of the earth is wiped out maybe God will have mercy on you and you will
be in the bunch.

  ===========================
Jeff Day


Teaching Better Sex??? September 9 2002, 8:22 PM

Mr. McKnight.

Thank you so much for your exposure of Mr. Sublett's "teachings" on sex. Lets be absoulutely
frank. Mr. Sublett does not teach us ANYTHING about sex. All he does in his incessant rants is
to relate worship TO sex. There is no teaching there, only condemnation of those who have a
different view on worship than he does....or some kind of sexual fixation on his part, I am
not sure which. It APPEARS as though you agree with his fixation, however.

Anyway, I am not attempting to silence Mr. Sublett, only respond to his attepts to silence
those who disagree with him. I am NOT an agent of Satan, and I guess that is how you attempt
to silence those that disagree with you. Let's stop any discussion on matters and just call
names...that will fix 'em.

You two, and Mr. Cruz berate people that post on this site, and I am here to defend the rights
of those of us that read and post on this website and do not agree with you, but wish to
discuss these matters without being berated or beaten over the head with your brand of
legalism. Jesus had VERY harsh words for those in His day that thought they had it down
perfectly....WHITE WASHED TOMBS. Are you one of those Mr. Sublett?

Grace and Peace.

Jeff Day



  ===========================
ConcernedMembers


Forum Owner
Re: Teaching Better Sex??? September 9 2002, 9:25 PM

Dear Mr. Day;

We are so disappointed in your admonishment. You are an official of
some sort with the Church, is this not correct.
To be specific:( http://www.broadway-church.org )

Do you not teach your sheep about the orgies and the music used by the
pagans, that God detested.

It's certainly honorable of you to stand up for those that you claim
are berated by us. It would have been more honorable though if you had
not berated Mr. Sublett at the end of your post.

As much as you would like to help, I am here to take care of the
berated, and in doing so I strongly advise you to remember what the
qualities of a good guest are.

The Moderator

  ===========================
Jeff Day


berating moderator September 9 2002, 10:03 PM

Just for the record, I am NOT an official at my church. I am an ordinary LAYPERSON. I
represent myself and not the opinions of my church. I am sure there are those at the church I
attend that would agree with you, and many who would not.

However, my email address is of no concern to you. Your concerns should be the biblical
accuracy and inaccuracy of those who post here and allowing contradictory posts when
necessary.

You, "Mr. Moderator" allow your "hirelings" as you and mr. sublett call them, to berate others
by essentally calling them "sex fiends" for their opinions on styles of worship with which you
and your "hirelings" disagree.

I have seen your "moderation" of those that you disagree with. This forum seems rather one-
sided with you and your hirelings making most of the posts here and filtering (I am sure)
others out.

I am sure this will not get to the board. My main point is that you and Mr. Sublett and Mr.
McKnight attack others and silence those that disagree with you by calling names and using
your ramblings (which most times make NO sense) to put down thier views and call them "agents
of Satan".

Doesn't feel good to get it back does it?

Grace and Peace
Jeff Day



  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: Mr. Sublett...you seem to have a problem... (by Jeff Day) September 5 2002, 11:00 PM
September 13 2002, 2:42 AM

Re: Mr. Sublett...you seem to have a problem... (by Jeff Day) September 5 2002, 11:00 PM

Jeff,

“Sexual” references relating to worship from biblical and historical perspectives seem to
dominate your thought processes. So overshadowed are the key elements of the well-researched
information about which Ken Sublett is trying to educate us. You shouldn’t be spending too
much time doing “searches” on words and phrases that mention “sex” in articles and documents
that deal with pagan worship activities, then overlooking the message being purported and
attacking the writer instead. You see, one would hardly associate murder or theft and other
evil acts with idolatrous worship, as one would immoral acts and practices. Perhaps, there is
something about you that needs to be dealt with in your “Prayer Ministry.” (Is the following
information incorrect? Is this a permanent designation or a temporary assignment that needs to
be updated on a regular basis? Just wondering.)

http://www.broadway-church.org/Ministries/Catalogue/leadership.html

Church Edification Ministries
PrayerMinistry Leaders: Jeff Day
Nurturing Elders: Larry Mullican
======================
Donnie

P.S.: ConcernedMembers is far from resembling TBN (Televised Blasphemers Network), one of your
favorite learning-the-truth sources, in addition to others from which you’ve learned the
charismatic imitation of “doing things in worship.” TBN asks for public donations, even from
the un-evangelized viewers so that they can be evangelized. TBN has very wealthy evangelists.
On the other hand, ConcernedMembers believes that the gospel is free to all and, therefore,
has no hirelings!!!

What you’ve said to the Moderator(s), “Your concerns should be the biblical accuracy and
inaccuracy of those who post here and allowing contradictory posts when necessary” is actually
what CM is doing. Otherwise, your opinion or contradictory posts would not even be allowed
here. Do you get it?


  ===========================
Jeff Day


No, Do you get it??? September 13 2002, 11:48 AM

First of all the dominant theme in Mr. Sublett's rantings are sex, I am merely pointing out
HIS apparant obsession with the matter.

Yes, I am our prayer ministry coordinator, and I pray for you and your church DAILY. And, I am
not sure how TBN got into this conversation, but I have not ever even watched one of thier
programs. I don't think we even get it here in the flatlands.

The main point of most of my posts is to get you guys to see the kind of judgementalism and
venom you are posting here and point out that essentially calling people "sex fiends" and
"sodomisers" because they worship in a way you don't agree with is WRONG. Plain and simple. If
you think they are wrong, then say so and use BIBLICAL references to say so. Don't use some
historical references or some obscure reference to Greek writers.

I thought this forum was supposed to be about exposing truth and the true source of truth is
the BIBLE. Nothing else (when it comes to biblical matters we are discussing here).

Obviously, I am not getting through. I guess I knew it was a lost cause when I came in here
and read some of the postings. I just get so tired of hearing those that wish to keep God in a
little box, safe and sound, and pull Him out to use Him whenever they please.

God is Omnipotent and Allpowerfull and able to do ANYTHING He wishes whenever he wants WITHOUT
our approval and OUTSIDE our rules. I wish to view Him in the latter sense. However, at one
time in my life I viewed Him in the former. I thank Him everyday for the FREEDOM in CHRIST
that has always been there, I just did not see it. I was hoping to shed a little light here,
and it did not work.

Actually, I have a tendency to get a little "worked-up" about things like this and probably
over-react. I am a little hyper-sensitive to issues being discussed here. If I have offended
anyone, I am truely sorry.

I do however believe that you are wrong in your views on worship and worship teams. I don't
think that you can EVER cover people with an all-encompassing blanket of judgement, or really
judge anyone for that matter and say they are agents of Satan or whatever. You may not agree
with them as I disagree with the general tone of this forum, but to say the things about those
that disagree with you her that have been said are just wrong.

Well, my buddies tell me that I should not even be going to sites like this, because all of
the negativity can rub off and affect your personality. I must confess that it has for me. I
guess that is what saddens me most.

I originally came in here hoping for some enlightening discussion and to maybe tell my story,
but I ended up getting caught in the downward spiral of condemnation and personal attacks.
Shame on me. I confess my sin and ask for forgiveness from you guys.

I am probably going to have to get away from this site because of the aforementioned things. I
am sure that my exit will be met with little fanfare and you guys will continue on, I will
only ask you to ask yourself as I have done in the last couple of days: Would Jesus have
replyed to some comments here like they have been replyed to?

Grace and Peace.

Jeff

=========================
Message From The Moderator

Mr. Day;

I think the record shows that you had ample time to defend the use of Praise Teams with
scripture, but you gave none!

You had ample time to love and beloved, but you gave none.

You spent your time doing exactly what you accuse us of. Berating and name calling.

We do love you and wish you the best.


This message has been edited by t on Sep 13, 2002 12:11 PM



  ===========================
Jeff Day

You cannot even let a guy leave in peace September 13 2002, 12:29 PM

You know "Mr. Moderator" you cannot even let a guy leave in peace. You have to add comments to
my message putting me down even as I was asking for forgiveness and confessing my sin. And
then you put at the end..."We do love you and wish you the best"

If you do, then accept my apology, love me and let's move on. But don't demean me further by
placing your editorial comments on my post.

I just cannot believe it. No understanding, no love, no acceptance. Amazing.

My original post stands alone without your comments. I am so glad that my church is a loving,
caring place to be.

Jeff

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


You cannot leave a guy alone September 13 2002, 2:41 PM

Jeff, you need to read the material from an OBJECTIVE standpoint and not interpret it by self-
reference.

I have never said that musical performers are perverted. What I have said is that from almost
the totality of Biblical evidence and the historical evidence including the fact that Catholic
musical performance came out of the monasteries, is that you CANNOT ESCAPE being seen as
flaunting your personae in the PLACE where Jesus Christ promised to stand.

The "audience" you CRASH without permission has no alternative--even when they sing and clap--
but to see you in the universal image of goddess worship by emasculated priests or by ALL
theatrical evidence.

People who PAY for entertainment understand what musicians have openly confessed: that you
cannot make it BIG TIME without having an ambigious sexual persona. Therefore, what is
transpiring is not CHRISTIAN WORSHIP and you have nothing upon which to claim that it is.

I cannot help it if people see what they see. Therefore, why not pick another VENUE for
performance rather than try to peddle something which has not a shred of evidence as WORSHIP
and has some heavy-handed words from God against you?

Since you performers know beforehand they yu will SOW DISCORD, the rest of history beginning
in the garden of Eden is that the SPIRIT which is guiding you is not a HOLY SPIRIT or the Mind
of Christ.

If you see the GOOD people as confessing to "infiltrating and diverting" then you belong to
another religion which has NOTHING in common with Christ.

Ken Sublett






  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


No, do you get it??? September 13 2002, 1:25 PM

Jeffy, if you want to talk about you I am sure that no one is stopping you.

If you are a missionary you might begin getting conditioned to DIALOG because there is NO
PREACHING in the 'CHRISTIAN CHURCH' even if in yours. Dialog means give and take, like in
MASCULNE. You might begin letting history and Scripture form on your lips: Just let go and
say, "Jesus wept."

Then you can tell us WHICH Bible you use to get musical worship teams or MUSIC in any sense as
SPIRITUAL worship as opposed to BODY WORSHIP (look that last one up on your puffer billy
search engine). Don't tell us you "got a call" because Jim Jones and David Koresh did too
(Koresh was the first artsy-craftsy guy or smithys who eternally travelled and sold more than
spear points).

Since you will find ZIP, then look for all of the NEGATIVES associating music with sexuality
passages. Ask the preacher for help, he says that you guys are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Then, since there is no BIBLICAL authority for MUSIC as performance "worship" why NOT look at
all of the ORIGINAL VERSIONS of the Babylonian and other ANE proof that music was the
perverted sexual worship of Ishtar, Inanna, Zoe, etc.

-------In Phonicia and Syria almost all popular music reflected the worship of Ishtar, the
goddess of FERTILITY." (Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, p. 461, Abingdon).

Musical Worship Teams are practicing FERTILITY RITUALS trying to suck in the seekers.

-------"Asherah (symbolized by errect poles with fertility symbols pouring out the top): She
is the Queen of Heaven, in other languages and ages identified as Ashtoreth, Athirat, Astarte,
and Ishtar. Yahweh, the Hebrew God elevated to become the sole deity , was Her consort." (So
they said, just as the effeminate lust and "dare to dance with God")

"Her "male" priestesses were known as kelabim, the faithful "dogs" of the Goddess,
who practiced divinatory arts,
danced in processions, [Clergy hoped that John the Baptist was ONE of those]

"and served as hierodules, qedeshim, (male prostitutes or worship ministers)

"in the company of other priestesses.

"Elements of the goddess worship were largely erased in a cultural purge c. 630 BCE by King
Yosiah, at the behest of Yahweh's priests

--------"I would argue that in Greek tragedy the cross-dressed actor was crucial, a sign of
the conventional nature of the DRAMA. Male playing female is inevitably distanced from the
role and makes it clear that the role of the woman is an idealization, not a realization.

"In addition the male playing female indicates a possible relevance of the form to dionysus, a
god associated with masks and characterized by SOFTNESS, woman's curls and dress (Bacchae) and
worshipped with transvestite ceremonies at the Oschophoria (Seaford; Segal 1982: 10-20, 158-
68, 214).

-------"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of
the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus
held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire
condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.

"He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and EFFEMINATE men fell into this
folly.

"Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of
the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.

----"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of
the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal: these
singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (The priest, Quasten)

------"The trained musicians which eventually appear around the time of David and Solomon mark
a distinctive change in the history of Jewish music.

"Before this time much of the music was made by women." (Zondervan Pict., Music p. 313).

Aristotle:

----"About music on the other hand we have previously raised some questions in the course of
our argument, but it is well to take them up again and carry them further now, in order that
this may give the key so to speak for the principles which one might advance in pronouncing
about it.

"For it is not easy to say precisely what potency it possesses, nor yet for the sake of what
object one should participate in it--

1. whether for amusement and relaxation, as one indulges in (1) sleep and (2) deep drinking
(for these in themselves are not serious pursuits but merely pleasant, and 'relax our care,'
as Euripides says;

"owing to which people actually class music with them and employ all of these things,

"sleep, deep DRINKING and MUSIC, in the same way,
and they also place dancing in the same class);

2. or whether we ought rather to think that music tends in some degree to virtue (music being
capable of producing a certain quality of character just as gymnastics are capable of

"music accustoming men to be able to REJOICE rightly);
or that it contributes something to intellectual entertainment and culture

3. (for this must be set down as a third alternative among those mentioned). Now it is not
difficult to see that one must not make amusement the object of the education of the young;

"for amusement does not go with learning--
learning is a PAINFUL process.

This is why Jesus came to make DISCIPLES. A Disciple wants to know everything he can find out
about everything which ever happened. At the end of the process, Jeffy, I will know more Bible
than you if you continue to defend singy-clappy.

You need to read and learn, Jeffy, because the TENURE of dominant pastors whose job is to SHUT
YOUR MOUTH (you are learning well) has about finished its end-time tribulation period and the
world is learning that there ARE NO PROFESSIONAL ROLES IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

No priestly sermonizing mediators, no musical mediators, no men's ministers by boys who gag on
any intellectual pursuit.

But believe me, your MISleaders got the MUSICAL WORSHIP theam by hatching out VIPER'S EGGS.
There is NO Biblical authority and to the literate the Bible condemns it from the story in the
garden of Eden where SODOMY was initiated by the NAAS or musical enchanter to the end-time
Babylon Prostitute where "all music is the worship of the ancient Babylonian goddesses." And
it will all go back into Sheol or hell to "rot on a bed of maggots."

Now, you need to get your buddies to hustle up some Scripture and in the name of Kindergarten
101 slowest one in the slow group don't OUT yourself and say, "David did it." Well, I think
that David did it: if not that is the only sin he missed. No, he was a man after God's own
heart "in his first ways." David was a KING SET OVER US which God promised would lead them
into captivity and death after taking a TITHE of everything and confiscating the young boys
and girls to be his servants as well as parcelled out to his "ministery teams."

Well, Jeffy, I can go on and on as ALL literate students of the Bible and history can do but
WE will seek in vain to find ANY recommendation for MUSIC or theatrical preaching or DRAMA.
Modern experts claim that "music and DRAMA work because we KNOW THAT IT ISN'T TRUE.' This
agrees with all of the MUSICAL passages in the Old Testament which said to God: "We WILL NOT
listen to your words."

Ken Sublett





  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Re: Teaching Better Sex??? September 9 2002, 11:55 PM

Oh, Mr. Moderator, leave Jeffy alone.

He claims to be a missionary to Peru.

Sure, he is in the youth ministry, probably led by women from cradle to grave: FEMALE
children's minister, youth minister, female youth minister intern and cannot grasp anything
higher than female worship.

When Paul spoke of preside over women he would have especially had in mind any schols of Bible
mandatory at age 5 with no cut outs and singy-clappy songs which, in the words of Plato gave
them a "second incarnation as females."

As the twig is bent so it grows and the effeminate WORSHIP service is the end-product of
Isaiah's prophecy of "women and children" ruling over you: that can also be translated
"effeminate and childish."

Jeff, why haven't you picked up on any of the totally Biblical and historical stuff and just
see SEX, SEX, SEX? You can rave all you want to but if you try to approach a Holy Spirit God
with your body He will burn you to a crisp: Jesus might say in Matthew 13 that this is why you
CANNOT appreciate Biblical and Historicl truth. And Paul said in 2 Cor 3 that you are blind
and deaf until you TURN to Jesus who was not, as the priesthood hoped, a queer singing,
dancing, clapping guy doing the female choral dance while the priest piped.

Sorry ladies but you have come all of the way out and you have created an emasculated America
which is too squeemish to tell the world that music as performance was, is and forever shall
be the product of males who have been deprived of the honest MASCULINE JOURNEY and seek it in
phallic religion and phallic symbols. No males ever created RELIGIONS which are all Phallic
with all Phallic priesthoods, while the God of the Bible is identified as FATHER and Jesus as
SON rather than mother goddess and a little "jesus."

Jeff, tune in tomorrow and I will OUT some more of the universal connection between RELIGION
and strange men led by strange women. At the same time the Bible disparages "religion" (what
you guys do with yourselves) and created the church like the synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.
An ex nun, Susan Armstrong, notes that music and religion is for the weak but the WORD appeals
to the MASCULINE.

So, let Jeff spill it all for all of the watching world that while he is approaching manhood
with no knowledge and no love for the Word, Jesus could challenge the Rabbi at aged 12 and
they called on Joshepus to explain difficult problems at age 14.

Ken Sublett, totally cleaned by 1 gallon of "gator aide" stuff and a trip to same day surgery
for a clean bill of health: inside and outside. Jeffy, when you get 71 plus you will discover
just how ridiculous the human body is as a sex object because God, the Masculine Engineer,
created it for masculne quests.






  ===========================
Kevin


Madison and the Amish September 5 2002, 11:48 PM

I have a lot of respect for the Amish people. They have committment to what they believe, even
though most of us would say that how they follow Christ is just a matter of opinion and not a
doctrinal issue.

Here's what I see the Amish as having done. They are frozen in time. THey picked a time that
they thought was great - the 1800's, and they think that that time periond with its lack of
motorized vehicles, electricty, and the King James Bible, etc. is what God approved. However,
that is a matter of opinion. Most people in Christendom would disagree.

I have never visited Madison, but from reading some of the posts on this site, I see the
dissenters of the change that is taking place there doing the same thing. They have chosen a
time in the Church of Christ, i.e. around 1940-1950, and they want everything to remain being
done the way it was done then. Again, I say that this is a matter of opinion.

The songs that were sung then were songs that were written to express the worship of a certain
time - not the 21st century. THe way that worship was done was the way the people of that time
expressed their love to God. Methods change over time. Now mind you, I am not saying the truth
of God's word changes - it remains very much the same.

Our goal is to win people. In order to do that we must be both culturally relevant and
Biblically sound. From what I understand, that's what the leaders of Madison are trying to do.

God bless them,

Spurly

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


madison and the amish September 6 2002, 1:20 PM

I am having a VISION. Maybe too much coffee but maybe I see a band of buddies deliberately
trying to shift the emphasis by deliberately distorting Donnie's research which was to REFUTE
the lie that the erotic praise songs didn't dominate. But "diverting" is part of the game
plan. The TYPE of songs didn't drive off the previous OWNERS and steal the church house of
widows and make you guys into a laughingstock.

Living amidst and having built a house with an Amish master carpenter I know that they are not
locked IN time. Rather, they have tried to LOCK OUT the world. Ask an Amish about anything
Biblical and be prepared to defend yourself which CLAPPY-SINGY will not equip you for.
Therefore, they are BIBLICAL in seing church as SCHOOL of the Bible and not a pagan worship
ritual. They are LOCKED INTO the first century about music. Pretty commendable. I can tell you
that I could trust them implicitly and I can tell you that the "brethren" would almost always
RIP YOU UP AND RIP YOU OFF because they had been praising Cowboy Dan rather than learning the
Word.

The CCM of the 60's were really the songs of the 1800s primarily. These songs don't remotely
meet the absolute demand of Paul that the RESOURCE is "that which is written, the Spirit or
the Word of Christ." Nevertheless, there was no THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE by professionals. This,
too, was before the rise of the gay dominaton of theater and music (at least publically)

Therefore, singing "Four part Fanny Crosby" did not SOW DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN."

Again, when people ASSEMBLED they did a form of SYNAGOGUING which began officially in the
wilderness when the common people were quarantined from the Tabernacle because of MUSICAL
IDOLATRY or rising up to play. The SYNAGOGUE "had no praise service" at any time and the
church had no superstitious praise service because both were SCHOOLS OF THE BIBLE. That is why
Paul's DIRECT COMMAND was to Speak, Teach, or Preach the Revealed Words of God. There was no
SINGING in the modern falseto sense except in the pagan prostitute religions. There was no
EXTERNAL melody because PSALLO meant to "grind the enemy into a fine powder" as Jesus did the
SOP as a form of PSALLO. You PSALLOED a fellow's head off with a sword or TWANGED a bowstring
to send a SINGING arrow into the enemies heart.

Even so, their melody was not remotely as powerful as modern HARMONY in grinding up the
rational mind to create the drug, endorphins, to give you a DRUG HIGH to be sold as
"spiritual."

No, the church was not to WIN SOULS. The church in fact was often REMOVED from the public
assembly of non-believers for the Lord's Supper and hymning (speaking) which was DIRECTED TO
GOD. The message, dear friend, is that the MISSIONARIES IN RESIDENCE were sent OUT to win
souls. There is no early history of churches existing to SUCK IN THE SEEKERS. Soul winning was
OUT THERE. This is why the Bible and history repudiated a local hireling to be the pastor-
teacher or deacon who were the local teachers-ministers.

The CHURCH as tool of evangelism came AFTER the pagans flocked to baptism when the priest
began to be paid by the state in about 364. Cathedrals were then SEEKER CENTERS built in towns
to attract tourists to the TRADE FAIRS.

If God had viewed MUSIC AS A TOOL OF EVANGELISM then He would have prescribed it. Furthermore,
He would not have jeopardized it by UNIVERSALLY associating music with Satan or leaders who
plainly said to the prophets: "We will not listen to any more WORDS from God."

Isaiah 5 and Amos 5,6 speaks of leaders who used the SEEKER DEVICES. Jiffy Quick, God broke
down the walls to allow the BEAST PEOPLE to come in and steal their vineyards, kids, wives and
all. That DO fit the Madison pattern I hear.

No MUSIC word used in the Bible for spiritual worship. Music is universally associated with
PAGANS and Satan trying to silence the WORD OF GOD. It is a defacto fact and needing no
proving that praise teams and self-composed hymns tell Jesus to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP.

David RECITING his poems and then strumming his harp between verses was NOT music.

Ken Sublett







  ===========================
Kevin


Really? September 9 2002, 7:00 PM

On the front page of concernedmembers.com are printed these words:

"No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be
correct."

As I have read through the posts, I have not found this to be true. People are constantly
admonishing others for worshipping in ways that don't fit with their "pattern" of worship.

Not only do they "admonish" others, some on this board will basically tell someone they are
going to hell if they don't change and worship like they do.

Let's get back to the message on the front page. Let's discuss things in order without judging
others - let's allow God to be the judge. Who are we to judge another man's servant?

Spurly

  ===========================
ConcernedMembers


Forum Owner
Re: Really? September 9 2002, 9:39 PM

Spurly;

You left the second line off, and that's the important one!
"However, when someone subverts an existing Church by secrecy and deceit against the
principles of it's founders and members...
...WE HAVE A PROBLEM!"

Yes you took it a little out of context.

We don't know whether your going to Hell or not! Evidently, your crowd thought we were going
to Hell though, because they took our Church over to show us how to worship the "right way"
Have A Good Day!

  ===========================
Kevin


Erotic praise songs? September 10 2002, 5:47 PM

Ken,

Could I have a little more education as to what you mean by erotic praise songs. Maybe the
church where I attend doesn't sing the same songs you are referring to, but I can't think of
any song we sing that would fall into the category of "erotic". Do you have some specific
examples?

Just trying to figure out what they are,

Kevin

PS If I come through Nashville, could we have lunch some time?

  ===========================
Kenneth Sublett


Erotic Praise Songs? September 11 2002, 11:58 AM

Morning, Kevin.

I am not in Nashville. I live in Hohenwald, TN graually shieled from RELIGION which was
destroying my emotional health since about 1987 when the Jubilee dittoed the Pope's call for
Jubilee 2000 at which time the church of Christ was hoped to be folded into the arms of Mother
Church. The Virgin of Quadalupe also revealed that at that time all of the PAGANS and MASONS
would be destroyed. Narrative Theology preached in Nashville is a blend of Feminist an
Liberation theology and therefore the JUBILEE's goal was to redistribute the world's wealth.

In 1998 I launched my site after watching from afar my old church in Seattle returning to
Sodom and seeing the total disturbance of the local church locked into Promise Keepers,
Jubilee and any scheme which promised magic. They even errected their little phallic columns
like those at Woodmont and the temple of Jerusalem where the males worshipe the sun god and
the Arena of Jubilee 98, adding THE FAMILY OF GOD sign and all of the pagan stuff. Gave the
song books to some denomination and bought the new Howard's Vineyard-look alike with a lot
more Twila Paris teaching Catholic dogma and a lot less Jesus.

Don't tell the congregational singers but their book was CCM in the 1800s and were also erotic
praise songs replacing the Psalter of their Presbyterian ancestors or more MASCULINE human
compositions. Here is some random notes about CHURCH MUSIC which is discounted as MUSIC
because of its EFFEMINATE and EFFEMINIZING influence. That means music to "take the fight out
of people and make them FEEL spiritual." That is erotic:

http://www.piney.com/RmHymns.html

This background also notes that RELIGION is the produce of powerless preachers and women but
jesus put down religion and made the church as His Body into a school of the Bible. The HEAD
of the body speaks to the BODY in Christianity. This is why singing as a lust to SPEAK to
Christ while He is trying to be our ONLY TEACHER is both girlish an self-centered.

Remember that Paul condemned the Corinthians because they were trying to SPEAK TO GOD which he
said was just SPEAKING INTO THE AIR. His concern was that in synagoguing (the most common word
for the assembly) Jesus was SUPPOSED to speak to the worshipers: giving heed to His Words is
Paul's almost unique "worship" word. You simply CANNOT even think about Jesus when you are
singing the sentimental, weak and I believe effeminate ditties. On the other hand, if the
songs, as John Calvin proposed, are inspired Scripture then we KNOW that it is God speaking to
us and not us (big mouths) trying to bribe God. That also obeys Peter's absolute direct
command that the Word is not subject to private interpretation which is FURTHER EXPOUNDING.
ALMOST ALL churching now has turne to further expounded sermons, further expounded songs an
further expounded Sunay School class: Jesus has truly been told to sit down and shut up.

On the other hand, the pagans sought to SPEAK TO their gods to give them MORE POWER, to seduce
them or to get something of value. In modern "praise" songs proponents even claim that praise
songs HELP GO DO HIS WORK. These songs are the human soul trying to get close to God, to speak
to Him, to praise Him and the urge to "know Him personally" which is sexually.

Again, Erotic to many writers is anti-christian because it has ME trying to GET some kind of
FEELING from lusting to "dance in the arms of Jesus." Christian or MASCULINE songs is devoted
to the WORD: women talk about poems and feelings, men talk about how to DO things. These songs
are known to emasculate the mind: Cyrus was told how to make captive warriors into hucksters
and singers and make weak women out of them to take the fight out.

You might want to read a Christian Church scholar on the Sissification of the Church:

http://www.piney.com/ChRogerChambers.html

I rarely get out of my "hollar" but if you make it to Hohenwald I would enjoy meeting you.

Ken Sublett


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Thanks for answering [by Kristie (Kookie or Kreme--your choice)] September 10 2002, 12:59 PM

Thanks for answering [by Kristie (Kookie or Kreme--your choice)] Sept. 4, 2002, 3:34 PM

Dear Kristie:

You must have a good reason for not letting us know you last name. But I believe it is safe
for me to assume that with the many church activities you participate in, many members know
you well. I promise not to let myself identify you any further, and I appreciate what appears
to be your good sense of humor for letting me use one of two choices [for a name] or whatever
I wish.

=============================================
ENFORCED TITHING (10%) VERSUS LIBERAL GIVING (AS PROSPERED)
=============================================
Your statement on the only regret of not having the wealth in order for you to give more for
church work leads me to believe that it is NOT your fault that you have misunderstood the
tithing concept. I agree with you that as much as Dr. White emphasized the 10 percent value
(i.e., what tithing is exactly) in his sermon, he did not go so far as to oblige or require or
force anyone to give that much. Not at this stage anyway. But if you really think about it,
why would he even bring up an actual percentage value, 10% of income, (1) that “belongs to the
Lord” and (2) that is to [I elect not to use the word “must” to give Dr. White the benefit] be
returned to the Lord? Why did Dr. White not simply encourage members to “give of your best to
the Master”? It is not your fault, Kristie. It is Dr. White’s fault. Oops! But this is what
happens when we are not “rightly dividing the word of truth” as we “study to show thyself
approved unto God” (II Timothy 2:15).

I am glad to know that both you and I agree that we give NOT because we are forced to do so.
But the problem remains that Dr. White has perverted the truth about tithing by equating it to
or substituting it for giving. As I mentioned in my response to your question on enforced
tithing, this law or command can not and must not be for New Testament Christians. The
Israelites were commanded and required to TITHE for the service of the Levitical priesthood;
but Christians are to give liberally, as they have been prospered, not grudgingly, in order to
support the destitute and the needy (I Corinthians 16:1-3). The doctrine of tithing has
already been exhaustively explained in various posts, which have not been responded to by the
other seemingly deceived camp of new believers of tithing. Let me just quote a portion of
another post under the TIMELINE thread, “Sermon on September 1, 2002”:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[[[… Let us not forget the recent series of important lessons on TITHING. As points of
reference, the following passages must be studied carefully:
--------------------------------------------------
(1) The ITEMS which constituted tithing, considering tithing as only ONE of the laws or
commandments for the Israelites, and the PEOPLE who were REQUIRED to tithe; and
(2) The RECIPIENTS and the NON-RECIPIENTS of the tithes.
--------------------------------------------------
PASSAGE ONE in Leviticus 27:26-34: “Only the FIRSTLINGS of the BEASTS … whether it be OX, or
SHEEP: it is the Lord’s … and of the FIELD of his possession … ALL the TITHE of the LAND,
whether of the SEED of the LAND, or of the FRUIT of the TREE, is the Lord’s: it is HOLY unto
the Lord … And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of WHATSOEVER passeth
under the rod, the TENTH shall be holy unto the Lord … THESE ARE THE COMMANDMENTS, WHICH THE
LORD COMMANDED MOSES FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL IN MOUNT SINAI.” (Note the other laws and
commandments found in the book of Leviticus: law of burnt offerings, law of peace offerings,
law of sin offerings, law of trespass offerings, the priests’ offerings, laws of purification,
sanitary laws for leprosy, laws of the sabbath, laws concerning the holy days, the year of
jubilee.)
--------------------------------------------------
PASSAGE TWO in Numbers 18:21,24: “And, behold, I have given the CHILDREN OF LEVI all the TENTH
IN ISRAEL for an INHERITANCE, for their SERVICE which they serve, even the service of the
TABERNACLE of the congregation…. But the TITHES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, which they OFFER as
an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given TO THE LEVITES TO INHERIT: therefore I have said
unto them, Among the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL they shall have NO INHERITANCE.”
--------------------------------------------------
The impact of this perverse transition FROM tithing items required of the Israelites for the
service of the Levitical priesthood TO Christian giving was apparent when the prayer prior to
the contribution stated a confession….]]]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

=============================================
KRISTIE: “REGARDING MY STAND ON PRAISE, WORSHIP AND THE HOLY SPIRIT”
=============================================
Regarding other issues on “praise, worship and the Holy Spirit,” I am glad that you quoted
Luke 24:44-46. Indeed, Christ said, “that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in
the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.” “Thus it is written,
and thus it behoved Christ to suffer…” Christ fulfilled the law of Moses to put an end to it
in preparation for the upcoming establishment of the church under the law of Christ, the law
of love. So, what happened to the fulfilled law at Christ’s death? Colossians 2:14 states,
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and
took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS.” (Know what, Kristie? It simply makes sense
that as Christians we are no longer bound by the old law and ordinances as the Israelites
were, including the law of tithing.) Of course, we all know and believe that after Christ’s
suffering and death he would “rise from the dead the third day.” The remainder of the passage
you quoted tells us of the fulfillment of Matthew 16:18 which says, “And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall
not prevail against it.” The church began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost as explained in
the first chapters of Acts.

Yes, on the day of Pentecost, the role of the Holy Spirit was evident: “…they were all with
one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven AS OF A RUSHING MIGHTY
WIND (“as of” emphasis by D.C.), and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And
there APPEARED unto them cloven tongues like AS OF FIRE (“as of” emphasis by D.C.) … and they
were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with OTHER TONGUES, as the Spirit gave
them utterance … every man heard them speak IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE.” Have you heard of any
Christian today experiencing the hearing of “a sound from heaven AS OF A RUSHING MIGHTY WIND”
or seeing “cloven tongues AS OF FIRE”? Of course NOT! But then, charismatic (oops!) church of
Christ folks would gladly join the modern-day charismatics in proclaiming that they “FEEL” the
presence of the Holy Spirit as soon as they “LISTEN TO” the beautiful and inspirational
singing performance by THE WORSHIP LEADER and his/her PRAISE TEAM. I wonder how this FEELING
of the presence of the Holy Spirit that the charismatic folks experience compare with the
SOUND [as of a tropical storm] and SIGHT [of cloven tongues as of fire] experienced on the day
of Pentecost! Do the charismatic folks induce this feeling by exclaiming several, several
“Praise the Lord” and “Hallelujah” repetitions?

Now that we have the written word of God, I hope you agree that the Holy Spirit operates
through God’s word. Galatians 4:6 states, “And because ye are sons, GOD hath sent forth the
Spirit OF HIS SON [Jesus Christ] into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” Ephesians 6:17
states, “And take the helmet of salvation, and the SWORD of the Spirit, which is the WORD of
God.” I Corinthians 2:11-13 says, “even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of
God … which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the
Holy Ghost TEACHETH…” “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT
and in TRUTH” (John 4:24). “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is
TRUTH” (I John 5:7).

=============================================
IF “PEOPLE LIFTED THEIR HANDS IN RESPONSE TO RECEIVE A BLESSING”
=============================================

If “people lifted their hands in response to receive a blessing” should not be an issue. But
let’s clarify verse 50, which you quoted, because it was Christ that “lifted up his hands, and
blessed them.” Lifting of hands [in the so-called “corporate” worship or] for whatever reason
is rarely mentioned in the New Testament, if at all. We need to be careful about the purpose
or self-motivation in lifting of hands. “Lifting up holy hands” is mentioned in I Timothy 2:8.
Nonetheless, it’s best to study both chapters 2 and 3 of I Timothy, so as not to take this
“act” out of context. (Just a reminder that this topic has been discussed in a number of posts
on this site.) It is clear to me that the broad topic in these chapters deals with contrasting
the role of men with that of women in the church and in the home. Is the lifting of hands done
so by lifting up “holy hands”? Is the lifting up of hands done so only by men, and by men
leaders at that? Is the primary lesson here that of praying? And that praying is to be offered
without wrath and doubting? “I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy
hands, without wrath and doubting.” (I Timothy 2:8).

Oops! Here is the contrasting role of women. Sorry, ladies. “IN LIKE MANNER also, that women
adorn themselves in modest apparel … but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good
works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach,
nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence…” This is not chauvinism: if I were
a woman, I would play it “safe” and I would not overextend my hands in these circumstances.

=============================================
KRISTIE: “ON PRAISE TEAMS AND WORSHIP LEADERS…”
=============================================
On praise teams and worship leaders, I would like to ask the reader to just browse this site
until exhausted.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kristie, I admire you for the spirit that you have in being involved with serving those who
are in need, especially in the household of faith. I agree that a helping hand makes a lot of
difference to many people, even if the one who helps or the recipient is not even a Christian.
I’d like to ask you, though, to grieve for those that left, NOT because they became so angry
[about the interference] and confused [no, they weren’t; they were steadfast and confident],
but because they were also spiritual and loyal to Christ and his teachings. After all, they
had BEEN THERE for years and years, and they are the ones who were told to “GET OVER IT” and
driven away by the unconcerned leaders who were too proud to submit to God’s own direction and
leadership. The change advocates could have just started their own, instead of invading and
intruding and interfering. Obviously, the change advocates are more interested in conforming
to and accommodating the whims and caprices of the charismatic-inspired, hired WORSHIP
LEADERS, humble in words and braggadocios in heart and behavior on stage, who are just out
there to disrupt congregations of the church of Christ. (Worship leaders … let’s be honest!!!!)

Well, Kristie, I thought you might learn something from what you call a “mock prayer.” If you
are making reference to the prayer I suggested to some Anonymous writer, I thought I was
summarizing the numerous activities that certain leaders of any congregation, including
Madison, have been involved in and that have contributed to the disunity of fellowship here.
[For the reader who is curious about this “mock prayer,” please read … “Re: Reply to Donnie's
Raving Against Tithing: (by Anonymous) August 29 2002, 2:44 AM” that was posted on August 30
2002, 12:03 PM under the thread “Mammon Controlled Church.”] Also, I was only responding to
the following UNEDITED email: “Reply to Donnie's Raving Against Tithing: (by Anonymous) posted
on August 29 2002, 2:44 AM under the thread “Mammon Controlled Church.”

==================================================
[[[Please don't interpret this that endorse tithing as a law.

Donnie, after another of your L_O-N_G ramblings and dodging the short challenge anonymous gave
you. It is apparent that you are disturbed and very upset that the group at Madison gave
$67,000 dollars one Sunday. After you and ken had tried so hard to discourage everyone from
giving anything to support what you think is evil. If I felt the Madison church was a group of
"pagans", I would not want to see them prosper in any way either. Let me suggest that when you
say your prayers tonight that you say,

"Thank you God that I am not one of those "pagans" even though I do attend there. I try to go
in late so some of the idolatry will be over and I won't have to be present. I spend some of
the time taking notes,so, Lord, you know my heart is not in it. And God, I am sure you noticed
that I did not put one red cent of that in. So, Lord I am not responsible and you know it. Ken
and I will continue to do our best to discourage all we can, but after all God it will take an
act from you to stop that bunch. I am sure when that bunch gets to the judgment you will have
a special place reserved in HELL for all the tither's. It breaks my heart Lord to think that
they might be in heaven with the rest of us who give 2 1/2% of our income. I love you God and
you know it... A-MEN" P.S. Let me know God if there are some other names I can call this
group, the ones I have been using don't seem to be having too much effect.

After having said this prayer you can go to sleep in peace and perhaps tomorrow you won't feel
so angry with yourself.]]]
==================================================

Kristie, I did not like the idea of ending this post with a “mock prayer” coming from a
supposedly “SPIRIT-FILLED” charismatic, community church mover who evidently has no respect
for God’s truth and is not interested in seeking and studying the truth. His lack of sincerity
in studying the Scriptures is evident in that throughout the month of August, when the truth
about tithing was perverted, I did not see evidence of the sheep and other animals, fruit of
the land, etc., being brought to the church parking lot for tithing purposes.

In conclusion, however, it is my sincere hope and trust and prayer that we serve and revere
our Father in heaven, and do His will as instructed by the Holy Spirit through God’s word, and
not be obsessed with what we, in our own human terms and wisdom, THINK pleases God. Better
safe than sorry, true?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie Cruz


  ===========================
Donnie Cruz

Re: To MADISON : Remember what happened to them??? (Mike) November 9 2001, 10:15 PM September
19 2002, 12:22 PM

Re: To MADISON : Remember what happened to them??? (Mike) November 9 2001, 10:15 PM

Almost a year ago, Mike posed a BIG question to the Madison congregation and pointed out in
his post a good example of a worship scenario … and suggested in a follow-up post that change
advocates should be doing their conversion initiatives not within the congregation, but out
there in the community mission field. A concerned sister from Mississippi just recently
responded to Mike’s question. In turn, Jeff Day retorted with some usual “kitchen” argument
that’s wholly unrelated to a Christian’s spirituality. Here are Mike’s original comments:

==================================================
To MADISON: Remember what happened to them??? (Mike) Nov. 9 2001, 10:15 PM
==================================================
[[When Nadab and Abihu (spelling?) decided to spice up the worship service with 'strange fire'
God struck them dead right there! aaawwwwww was God too mean? After all it could have drew a
Big crowd! God's Not a Liberal..]]
==================================================
A SOLUTION...that won't be listened to, ha (Mike) November 9 2001, 10:17 PM
==================================================
[[The ones who are wanting change,.. Let them start their own "free will Baptist" congregation
some place else; and leave the great works and reputation that Madison HAD to the ones that
Made it!]]
==================================================

==================================================
KATHLEEN TOPP ANSWERS MIKE: A CONCERNED SISTER September 17 2002
==================================================
[[I agree with your statement. If the lord wanted things like that in the he would have said
so. we should add or take away from his word.Also I am a member of the West Main Church of
Christ in Okolono, MS. My prayers and concerns are with you.]]
==================================================

==================================================
JEFF DAY ANSWERS KATHLEEN: Adding or taking away September 17 2002, 11:12 PM
==================================================
[[How do you reconcile your statement with the fact that we HAVE added to the word in the form
of church buildings, kitchens in church buildings, Wednesday night worship, song leaders, etc.
We have used the idea of "being silent where the word is silent" selectively.]]
==================================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mike, one of the passages that describe the strange offering of Nadab and Abihu is found in
Leviticus 10: “[1] And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and
put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he
commanded them not. [2] And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they
died before the LORD.” We can draw from these extraneous, unnecessary activities that the sons
of Aaron performed a parallel to the way worship services are conducted by contemporary
worship leaders today. Yes, the change advocates who were hungry for self-serving agenda based
on human, secular standards should not have intruded and interfered with the spirituality of
Christians who refused to be addicted to “their ways of doing things.” Yes, they should have
spent their energies doing conversions out there in the community mission field, rather than
doing their brand of evangelism within the church and transforming God’s church into a
Community Church that is in fact ashamed to carry the name “of Christ.”

Kathleen, I’m glad that you agree with Mike by stating that in matters of faith and doctrine,
God is specific. God is specific about the purpose and form of baptism: one is baptized in
order to obtain the forgiveness of sins, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit which means
“refreshing” or “a clear conscience”; and baptism is by immersion. God was specific about the
law or command of tithing and its requirements upon the Israelites for the Levitical
priesthood and Christians are no longer bound under the same law. God is specific about the
command to teach and admonish one another as one purpose of the assembly, and singing (songs
that teach) is one of the ways to accomplish this. God is specific in the New Testament, NOT
about MUSIC, but about singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord, just as God is
specific about the Lord’s Supper NOT being observed under the Old Testament dispensation, but
animal sacrifices were offered.

Jeff Day: church buildings, kitchens, gyms, air conditioning and other things that are
physical in nature and that have no bearing on a member’s spirituality are matters that do not
alter the contents of the Holy Scripture. The issues that are important and must be dealt with
by ConcernedMembers and New Testament Christians are those issues that affect a member’s
spirituality.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

==================================================
QUOTE OF THE DAY: BOOK OF ISAIAH, CHAPTER 1
==================================================
[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of
the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of
bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. [12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath
required this at your hand, to tread my courts? [13] Bring no more vain oblations; incense is
an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away
with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. [14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. [15] And when ye spread
forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not
hear: your hands are full of blood. [16] Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your
doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; [17] Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve
the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. [18] Come now, and let us reason
together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
==================================================

==================================================
PARALLEL QUOTE: WHAT IF THE BOOK OF ISAIAH, CHAPTER 1, STATED THE FOLLOWING IN “CONTEMPORARY”
LANGUAGE (THAT WE UNDERSTAND)…
==================================================
[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your [WORSHIP STYLES] unto me? saith the LORD: I am
full of the [display of MUSICAL TALENTS OF WORSHIP LEADERS, and the [PERFORMANCES OF THE
PRAISE TEAM]; and I delight not in [PROGRAMMED HANDCLAPPING], or [THUMPING], or [SWAYING TO
THE MUSIC]. [12] When ye come to [BE CALLED TO WORSHIP] before me, [DOES THE WORSHIP LEADER
PLAY MEDIATOR], to tread my courts? [13] Bring no more vain [CHRISTIAN ROCK MUSIC]; [HOLY
ENTERTAINMENT] is an abomination unto me; the [EASTER AND CHRISTMAS AND HALLOWEEN], the
calling of [OTHER HOLIDAY CELEBRATIONS], I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the [PRAYER
CIRCLES]. [14] Your [OPEN FELLOWSHIPPING] and your [LOVE] feasts my soul hateth: they are a
trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. [15] And when ye spread forth your hands [OR LIFT UP
HANDS FOR DISPLAY], I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye [EXCEED THE NUMBER OF
“HALLELUJAHS” AND “PRAISE THE LORDS AS YE] make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are
full of blood. [16] Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before
mine eyes; cease to do evil; [17] Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed,
judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. [18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith
the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red
like crimson, they shall be as wool.
==================================================

Donnie Cruz