FORUM ARCHIVES FORUM QUESTION: What Happened at Madison This Week? ..The Time Line ==================================== Donnie Cruz ConcernedMembersMadison REINSTATEMENT OF (THE USE OF) "PRAISE TEAM": The Second Week (July 14, 2002) July 20 2002, 12:20 PM REINSTATEMENT OF (THE USE OF) “PRAISE TEAM”: The Second Week (July 14, 2002) The WORSHIP LEADER, Keith Lancaster, “called everyone to worship” in the second (contemporary) service by leading (with the “praise team” aiding or co-leading) the following “praise” songs: “If You Miss Me” “We Trust In The Name of the Lord” “Hallowed Be Thy Name” “There Is No Other Name” “Open The Eyes of My Heart” Following was the “Welcome” segment by Frank Scott. (Note that this segment was originally called “Welcome/Love Feast” as is still in the first service.) “Congregational Reading” was also led by Frank Scott; then, singing of “Holy, Holy, Holy” and “Prayer” and singing of “Christ, We Do All Adore Thee.” The Communion (Lord’s Supper) was, of course, immediately followed by the “Love Feast” communion/fellowship and the children’s “trip” to Canaan’s Land. There was one more “praise” song just prior to the sermon: “The River Is Here” I believe it was during the singing of this song when a couple of handclappers initiated this extraneous activity; but fortunately for the ones easily annoyed and disrupted by it, the handclapping died down rather too quickly. Before the sermon, the men on stage exchanged acknowledgments of their presence and leadership roles. Frank Scott expressed his feelings about the “connection” in worship because of the “spirited” singing. Excuse me if my distance vision failed me, but I believe that Dr. White and Ldr. Lancaster hugged each other on stage. My first thought was that both men were doing it again for show in the second service; but then I realized that there was something different about the contemporary service from the first service. (I could only assume that Dr. White complimented the other on the wonderful a cappella singing with or without the non-vocal handclap accompaniment. Please note that Dr. White expresses to the audience quite frequently his appreciation for Ldr. Lancaster, and I have yet to hear a compliment in return.) I’ll admit to the fact and based on my own personal observation that the singing was lively. I did not notice, however, much difference in “feeling” the presence of the “praise team” members, except that the sound was amplified and that they probably were seated together. Perhaps, the “amplification” of the sound was what the announcements were suggesting in the reinstatement of the use of the “praise team.” (Same voices as before! I’m still convinced that the members of the team had been there in the contemporary assembly all along. Or, had they been skipping services altogether?) Anyway, the “praise team” dominated the singing. MORE THAN EVER! I wonder if many in the congregation are getting accustomed to just letting the team do the singing for them. (The team is just so wonderful to listen to, you know!!!) The leaders on stage somehow gave me the impression that the congregation was “spiritually” uplifted and that they felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in the midst. Guess what? I did not hear “a sound from heaven AS OF a rushing mighty wind” (Acts 2:2). Nothing appeared to me in “cloven tongues LIKE AS OF fire” (Acts 2:3). Hopefully, I did not hear folks “speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2:4), as I would not know how to interpret them. The sermon was on “What’s Right with the Church.” Obviously, this message was intended to let the media, society and ConcernedMembers know or be reminded that there are many good and great things about the church. The church has the doctrine, and the Scripture is the foundational base at Madison. Dr. White mentioned that the church should accentuate the positive and get rid of SUSPICION and the joy of finding something wrong. Results in baptism are increasing; the church is growing and vibrant. There’s something right about the church, he said, because the Holy Spirit is “causing my spirit to be alive.” The church is comprised of “Spirit-filled” people; the church has men “who have the Spirit of God to lead.” I would like to suggest at another time a sermon on “Being Realistic.” Dr. White should stress that there is a big difference between being positive and being realistic; that a positive attitude is not a substitute for righteousness and is not an escape from reality. There are a lot of negative information and prophecies and warnings in the Bible and in the life of Christ for the believer to learn. We need more confessing of sins than confessing of rights. Obscuring real and damaging issues is an insult to God’s negative corrective measures. The remainder of the activities included the following: “Lord, Be There” (“praise” song for invitation) Contribution “The Lord My Shepherd Is” (psalm) Family Matters Shepherd’s Prayer (by Ken Rice) “Restore My Soul” (“praise” song) Attendance posted for Sunday School was 826 (if I remember correctly) Attendance in the First Service was 482 (if I remember correctly and if for 7/14/02) Attendance in the Contemporary Service (not posted at the time) ============================================= Donnie Cruz This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Jul 20, 2002 4:06 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Jul 20, 2002 4:04 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Jul 20, 2002 3:59 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Jul 20, 2002 3:52 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Jul 20, 2002 3:46 PM ============================== Faith Who is Donnie Cruz????? September 23 2002, 12:26 AM Ahh my friend if you would learn and wake up and smell the roses for a change and see for yourself the outpouring of love at Madison, then you might be on the right page. No where do you have any right coming in like a reporter for a news station and writing all these things about this great church on this thing you guys call a webpage. This is such a disgrace and you will meet your judgment not by my standards but when you come face to face with Christ. I am a Christian and have been to several services (2nd service) at Madison and feel the power and presence of Christ int he love that is outpoured by those their. You, on the other hand, do not seem to grasp the principle. Posting such things as this about the reinstatement of the praise team is unnecessary and I do not appreciate it. Furthermore, excuses made to a dear friend of mine Chuck Sonn a few Sundays ago when he so kindly offerred to visit with you for lunch and you making up some flimsy excuse off the top of your head when you know good and well all you had to do was fill your gossip in the heads of those who look at this garbage!!! May God have mercy on you and that you come to grips with who you are and why you have hurt so many people with your actions. I know you won't be afraid to speak out, but quit hiding like a chicken and let your voice be heard..Come down stairs and sit and see for yourself and show up at 10:30am and not 10:50am. And by the way are you too busy to show up on Sunday nights and Wednesdday nights or just afraid that you might be seen! I know you are hinting at that I know who you are and it is a fact and you might know me but face the facts I have been at the Madison church long enough to know the lasting impression you have caused on the body of believers that worships here and it is sickening to see the effects you have had. May God mold your heart as you seek His will, Faith ============================== Donnie Cruz Re: Who is Donnie Cruz????? (by Faith) September 23 2002, 12:26 AM September 24 2002, 1:57 AM Re: Who is Donnie Cruz????? (by Faith) September 23 2002, 12:26 AM Faith, I believe that the bad smell of smoke from the turmoil at Madison is so overpowering that smelling the roses is almost impossible. The residual smoke has not gone away yet. In fact, it continues to get worse. That’s why I sincerely believe that I am on the right page. My mission is to tell the truth, even when it hurts. And no one can take that right away from me. If I have mentioned anything that you need to refute, please take this opportunity to do so. This is your chance. If this website is a disgrace, why did you participate? Yes, I will face the judgment not by your standards; and so will you. Faith, I am glad to know that you are a Christian. What exactly did you mean when you said that you “have been to several services (2nd service) at Madison”? Did you mean several services in one year? Did you mean several years of several services per year? Since I may not know you at all, I would like to know more about you other than by your judgment that this website is “garbage.” I’m curious as to where you sit since you’re telling about coming downstairs to “sit and see for yourself.” Do you mean that you sit downstairs and are still able to watch me go up and sit in the balcony? I wish my vision were that good! I’ve never had the intention of being famous or infamous. But it appears that I am, either way. So, what else do I need to know about myself? You have pretty well summarized it all: ---------------------------- “… that I know who you are and it is a fact and you might know me but face the facts I have been at the Madison church long enough to know the lasting impression you have caused on the body of believers that worships here and it is sickening to see the effects you have had. May God mold your heart as you seek His will, Faith” ---------------------------- “Sickening to see the effects you have had”? What are you saying, Faith? Excuse meeee! Did I cause the turmoil? Did I segregate the traditional worshipers HERE from the contemporary worshipers THERE? You and I both know that you have just made that judgment call by your own standards. But please don’t worry about me coming to grips and grasping the principle. I know where I stand on issues that continue to divide churches, of which you seem to have no concern. So, I would urge you to face the reality that praise team performances are a worship issue. If you didn’t think the reinstatement of the praise team was unnecessary, that is your prerogative and I fully understand that you would not appreciate me saying so. If you’re happy with the praise team performing and singing to you, there’s nothing I can do about the way you feel. So, now I am the talk of the town. Please tell your dear friend, Chuck Sonn, that I’m sorry about declining the invitation for lunch, not once, but more than once. I’m amazed at your clairvoyance -- you might know about me more than you need to know, such as where I go and what I do after services. That’s really scary. From what I’ve read from your post, all you have done is point out my evil deeds. I think you ought to come to grips yourself. You have presented no positive arguments for whatever you stand for. I am surprised that the moderator did not put your own garbage in the Viper’s Den. However, I can see also how the moderator wanted the world to see you in your true Christian attire. Donnie Cruz ============================== Donnie Cruz “THANK YOU” REPLY TO SR’S MESSAGE FOR CHRISTIANS AT MADISON July 24 2002, 6:46 PM Re: Re: “THANK YOU” to Elder Charles Link from Elder Howard Henderson (by SR) July 12 2002, 12:09 PM SR: Thank you for your original message of July 12th in response to my report on Charles Link, the latest of the 7 (almost half) of the eldership to resign in less than a year. It was my hope that your message would remain for a LONG time as the LATEST post under the “TIMELINE” thread for every reader to study and learn from. Your follow-up post in response to “Member at Madison” and Sonny Charles was an excellent message and prayer for everyone. Again, we appreciate your contribution to this site and we invite you to continue to offer your viewpoints and any suggestions. It is understandable that it strikes you and many others as “terribly sad that all the ‘changes’ that have been made were supposed to” bring more souls to Christ, “according to those who advocate these changes.” With that many elders resigning, it is very easy to deduce from that number that these elders’ voices were not heard and that their votes did not count in the decision processes; thus, a division FIRST in the leadership that inevitably led to the turmoil. I would like to think, based on your clear message for the Madison members and the brotherhood, that you are familiar with the issues that have been posted so far. Here’s a quote from the Madison Marcher: [A diversity of methods must be used. We will continue to offer two styles of worship with the more traditional service at 8 o’clock and the more contemporary service at 10:30 … In case you are not getting your way on this, please do your best to get over it BECAUSE it is time to “move on” … We will continue to study the issues of worship … Larry Sullivan will preach … his lesson (on) … “What Is Happening to Us?”] (There is more information under the thread, “WHO IS LARRY SULLIVAN AND THE STRAUSS INSTITUTE? Were The Elders Honest About His True Purpose?”) In addition to the Marcher report, an elder announced to the congregation to “GET OVER IT.” Well, it wasn’t that the hundreds of members that left did not get their way. Rather, the ones that decided to seek fellowship with kindred mind and spirit somewhere else had their worship and devotion disrupted, interfered with and intruded upon. The final straw was when the third “COMMUNITY CHURCH-LIKE” service (at 10:30), with about 300 attendees, was merged with the SECOND service (at 10:30): (1) while it still had the majority of the members attending and (2) that had the ORIGINAL worship format similar to the FIRST service at 8:00. I do not want to belabor this point, but the directives were loud and clear from the leaders for the disrupted members to “GET OVER IT BECAUSE” it was “TIME TO MOVE ON.” This answers your first question that “every church growth initiative that mandates ‘change’ seems to begin with running members away.” By the way, your question was articulately and accurately stated, and it really needed no further clarification from you. In fact, your first question (without the question mark) is a self-answering observation. And the answer can be qualified further. “Every church growth initiative that mandates ‘change’” in an attempt to IMPROVE UPON God’s divine pattern for the New Testament church is contrary to that divine pattern. A good example of an attempt “to improve upon” is the Saddleback design for church growth as originated by Rick Warren and Bill Hybels. In the final analysis, not only that it does “seem to” … but also that it “does” really begin with “running away” members who have knowledge of the truth and know the New Testament pattern for the New Testament church. You have plainly stated the facts about the history of the once-great Madison congregation, but the change advocacy has no interest in it as a source of inspiration to greater and better things that this body can possibly accomplish. The change advocates are more interested in carrying out their agenda even to the point of disruption, intervention and interference brought against those who find it necessary to maintain that the New Testament is the only guide and authority for Christians to follow and respect. The change advocates base their arguments mainly on what and where the New Testament says “NOT TO” rather than relying on the specific directives and commands found in the New Testament. This is where troubles and problems begin. We are familiar with the command of God for Noah to build the ark, not with any type of wood, but specifically of GOPHER wood. God was specific about the requirements for worship in different Old Testament dispensations. And so, we are familiar with the story of Nadab and Abihu who on their own volition and wisdom offered incense and strange fire before the Lord, causing them to die. Much has already been discussed that relates to the use of the praise team (similar to the choir originated by the Roman Catholic Church) and its performances. The question of the role of the “worship leader” who “calls” the entire congregation to “worship” - which goes beyond the task of simply starting or leading singing. The question of the emphasis on the music rather than simple singing designed to ‘TEACH AND ADMONISH” one another through psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. The questionable use of the lifting of hands in prayer in the passage that you quoted from 1 Timothy 2:8. You really brought up a good point about praying “without anger and disputing.” In addition to that, there’s a mention of the “men” (especially men leaders in context) praying. Most importantly, in the remainder of the chapter and following that, the contrast is made in the roles between men and women. There’s the question of handclapping and thumping while singing songs that are supposed to teach and admonish each other God’s will for us and to express reverence to our Father in heaven. There’s also the question of the “Covenant of Membership” that one of the elders has drafted for the Madison members - definitely a Saddleback feature. There are many other signs of gradual departure from the New Testament’s guiding principles for the church. You presented a good point in comparing these extraneous activities to the more important issues. As you said, “these things are not terribly important.” Allow me to go even further with the statement that these extraneous activities, besides their being without directions from the Scriptures, are not important all. In fact they are unnecessary, disruptive and controversial, and they foster division. And contrary to the Saddleback plan or design for church growth, these activities have yielded negative results at Madison. One suggestion I could offer is a passage (although it is) from the Old Testament, as it might parallel in concept the worship activities and practices being promoted by the change advocacy. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts, and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations, incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with, it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” (Isaiah 1:11-18) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It really bothers me that the change advocates have no valid and scriptural arguments for their trendy doctrines but from their own human wisdom. They are so quick to claim that they are the “peacemakers” by ignoring and accepting no responsibility for “SOWING DISCORD” among the brethren. Instead of abiding by the doctrine and commands found in the Scriptures, they go the extra mile in propagating their “Community Church” imitation of how to “DO” church. Yes, it is a sad situation for certain congregations in the brotherhood to be drifting away into being more secularized in doctrine and in practices of the Community Church Movement, not to mention the “charismatic” factor. Again, thank you for contributing. I hope that your message will cause the change advocacy to reconsider its position on several issues. The church of our Lord, as you said, should continue to be a shining light to the community, instead of the community leading the church to its downfall. May God direct and redirect the lives of the leaders for the sake of His church, Donnie Cruz ============================== Donnie Cruz IS “CHRISTIAN” TITHING AT MADISON NEXT (“COVENANT OF MEMBERSHIP”)? August 1 2002, 4:46 PM IS “CHRISTIAN” TITHING AT MADISON NEXT (“COVENANT OF MEMBERSHIP”)? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONTEMPORARY SERVICE AT 10:30A.M., JULY 28, 2002 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It was the usual worship program this past Sunday. Three songs from the hymnal were sung: “The Lord Is In His Holy Temple,” “Can You Count The Stars?” and “Jesus Is Lord.” These were the “praise” songs: · A Shield About Me (music at doors) · Deep Calls To Deep (music at doors) · Hide Me Away O Lord · This Is How We Overcome (music at doors) · Come Share the Lord · Mighty Is Our God · Great Are You Lord · The River Is Here The “praise team” had to be listened to for the 3 new songs. “This Is How We Overcome” contains in part the following words: “You have turned my mourning into dancing, You have turned my sorrow into joy.” The line “This is how we overcome” (chorus?) was repeated NUMEROUS times in a row (not quite but almost like a chant) for each verse. “Come Share the Lord” was sung prior to the Lord’s Supper. Part of this song says, “No one is a stranger here … everyone belongs.” “Mighty Is Our God” was sung with the REHEARSED handclapping as the SUPPOSEDLY SPONTANEOUS expression of joy. On top of that, there was a round of handclapping immediately AFTER singing of the song was completed. There is not much to describe here that pertains to the sermon by Dr. White on “How to Love.” After the sermon, Dr. White made an important announcement that I think was related to the sermon just delivered, as well as to a series of sermons in the next few weeks. I thought I would have some difficulty relating to the readers what’s in store for the Madison members soon, but quoting the “Madison Marcher” (July 24, 2002) has made it easy: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Taking God at His Word by Dr. C. Bruce White --------------------------------------------- We want each family to have a copy of this book. You will receive a copy if you are in services on Sunday. There will be copies at the Welcome Center for those who do not attend this Sunday. It is recommended that you not read the entire book, but only the first chapter for the first week. Let each member of the family read the first chapter, pray about it and discuss it. The sermon on August 4 will be about the first chapter. Read the second chapter the second week and continue this process through the month of August. We will conclude our study together on August 25. We are going to learn some things from God’s Word that will rearrange our thinking about how God relates to His people. We are going to learn some things about ourselves. But, most of all we are going to find what it is like to partner with God in the work of His kingdom. If you have longed for a more significant fellowship with God, a deeper sense of spiritual direction, a feeling that the Holy Spirit was leading your life, a calm about where life is going, then the month of August should help. Be sure to get your book, follow the plan, and prepare yourself for “window blessings.” It is going to be a tremendous experience, and we are all going to be blessed. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ OBSERVATIONS PERTAINING TO THE CHAPTER ON “TITHING”: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Not taking away the excitement of knowing something about the plan and following the plan, I couldn’t resist the temptation of reading the entire 79-page book. The title of the book is “Take God At His Word” and subtitled “Experience the Power of Giving” and authored by Dr. Kregg Hood. Just as I feel that this is not the appropriate time to discuss matters, I haven’t taken the time to find out about the author’s background except what’s mentioned in the book. CONTENTS: How to Get the Most from Take God at His Word Four Words from the Lord: 1. Word One: I Will Make You Rich in Every Way 2. Word Two: I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You 3. Word Three: I Trust You to Manage Material Resources 4. Word Four: I Will Help You Give More Than You Can Imagine As briefly as possible, the second chapter begins with “In the next few pages you’ll discover: · God invites us to take him at his word and test him by tithing. · Tithing is a doorway to God’s blessing today. · If you don’t tithe, you may fall “under a curse.” The second chapter has the following subject headings: · Power Principles of Tithing 1. Tithing motivates greater faithfulness. 2. Tithing releases God’s financial blessings! 3. Tithing expands Kingdom work. 4. Tithing changes spending habits. · Living Under a Curse · Think It Through · Meditate on God’s Word · Let’s Pray… +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ THE “COVENANT OF MEMBERSHIP” AS DRAFTED BY ONE OF THE ELDERS: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ COVENANT OF MEMBERSHIP Fully recognizing that Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord, and having publicly confessed my faith through baptism, and being in agreement with Madison’s beliefs and practices, I hereby declare my intention to enter into a Covenant of Membership with the Madison church family. In taking this step, I am committing to the following: 1. I will share the responsibility of our church family . . . by praying for the power of God and the Holy Spirit to be upon the ministry . . . by inviting the unchurched to attend . . . by warmly welcoming those who visit . . . by taking a place of ministry in our church family 2. I will support the testimony of our church family . . . by attending faithfully . . . by living a godly life . . . by giving regularly to support the ministry of our church family 3. I will protect the unity of our church family . . . by acting in love toward other members . . . by refusing to gossip . . . by following the leaders God has set in our church family If I find myself out of harmony with a fellow believer of this Body, I will not defame, gossip, or attempt to harm in any way, but will lovingly pursue the resolution of the matter in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17. If at some time in the future, I find myself irreversibly out of harmony with the fundamental doctrines and essential practices of Madison, I will not be a source of strife and division, but will peacefully leave the fellowship. The Madison Church of Christ will provide every resource possible through the Dispute Resolution Ministry to assist you in any type of conflict. Every effort will be made to assist you in finding a church home where you will be comfortable and at peace. Our Body Life is totally accountable to “The Greatest Commandment” that Jesus gave in Mark 12:30-31. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FINAL COMMENTS: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The “Covenant of Membership” has been addressed as being an issue on this site for quite some time now. Here comes the “manual” on “tithing and offerings.” The implementation of the covenant remains to be seen. The “tithing” experience seems to be on the horizon. But we are not in a position to make predictions or to present arguments for or against this new plan at this time. We’ll just have to wait and see. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ VOTE Would you sign an oath or covenant? Would you sign a tithing pledge? Discuss at SundaySchoolinExile This message has been edited on Aug 1, 2002 9:10 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Aug 1, 2002 8:46 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Aug 1, 2002 6:29 PM ============================== Kenneth Sublett ConcernedMembersMadison Tithing, Tongues, Raising the Dead August 2 2002, 12:03 PM Tithing, Tongues, Raising the Dead August 2 2002, 10:06 AM ARE WE THERE YET? Subject: The book mentioned above by Donnie Cruz: "Take God At His Word" and subtitled "Experience the Power of Giving" and authored by Dr. Kregg Hood. A simple search on the author Dr. Hood revealed this email sent to the author of "How To Raise The Dead" at; http://www.etpv.org/1998/hrd.html ====================== From: KREGG HOOD 05-Mar-1997 Subject: Resurrections from the Dead Dear Richard, Thanks for forwarding the article on resurrections from the dead. You might also want to add to your list the account in Jack Deere's book Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, Zondervan, 1993 (pg.203-206). Also, a friend of mine, Eridard Mukasa, who is a powerfully gifted preacher from Uganda and president of People of Destiny Evangelical Intl. Fdn., says he has seen a number of people raised from the dead back in Africa - although none here in the USA - at least yet Eridard and Jack will be speaking at a conference I'm hosting next month at HILLCREST Church in Dallas, TX. If you would like to contact Eridard, please let me know. Thanks and God bless your work. It's a great help! Kregg R. Hood, Ed.D. KreggH@worldnet.att.net ============================ Thanks to mentors like John Wimber, C. Peter Wagner, Chuck Kraft from Fuller as well as Paul Cain and others, Jack Deere had his orthodox view of theology systematically dismantled. He then became instrumental in introducing the THIRD WAVE to millions of Christians who trusted him because he had been a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary through his books "Surprised By The Power Of The Spirit" and "Surprised By The Voice Of God." Though these books have some precious truths in them, they also contain heresy. That is how false teachers ply their trade. They lay error alongside truth so that the unsuspecting and undiscerning will not be able to tell the difference between what is true and what is not. Following are a few examples of just how far away from orthodoxy Deere has gone. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/deere.html This involves JOEL'S ARMY. These people believe that they are God's army to hand out rewards and DESTROY the enemy. YES, YOU ARE THERE BUT YOU WILL LOSE, AND WE PLEAD THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS IN HIGH PLACES (The Pulpit is the highest). Kenneth Sublett ksublett@piney.com This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Aug 2, 2002 12:08 PM ============================== Kenneth Sublett ConcernedMembersMadison More Tithing, Tongues and Raising the Dead August 2 2002, 12:36 PM Tithing, Tongues and Raising the Dead August 2 2002, 10:34 AM YOU MUST RECOGNIZE THAT PICKING "SUNDAY SCHOOL MATERIAL" OVER THE BIBLE DEFINES THE SPIRITUAL STATE OF THOSE WHO DO THE PICKING AND PUSHING IN A MULTI-STEP CULT-LIKE PROGRAM: KREGG AND KAREN HOOD: By Dan Flournoy in October FIRM FOUNDATION 1996 wrote: On November 28, 1995, Kregg and Karen Hood appeared on the TV program Celebration hosted by Marcus and Joni Lamb broadcast over KMPX channel 29, Dallas/Ft. Worth. They "testified" as to how they came to reject "traditional church of Christ teaching." Kregg claims that God is now giving him the words to speak to his audience. KREGG HOOD is the former pulpit minister of the South MacArthur Church of Christ in Irving, Texas. He and his wife Karen claim to have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Consequently they are now in fellowship with false teachers such as Dr. Jack Deer, Paul Cane, John Elliott, and DON FINTO, who espouse tongue speaking, miraculous healing, instrumental music, faith only, and the impossibility of apostasy. Both KREGG and Karen HOOD have accepted denominational error and rejected the truth as it is in Christ Jesus. They have led others into apostasy and have established an organization known as "Full Message Ministry" for the purpose of leading others into the errors of Pentecostalism. They are especially interested in reaching those in the CHURCHES of CHRIST with the "fullness of the Holy Spirit." The Hoods have placed their membership at the Farmers Branch Church of Christ. This congregation is widely known for its false teaching and denominational stance. (See "Sounds of Change," Religion section, Dallas Morning News, June 3, 1995.) KREGG is now serving as Executive Vice President at SWEET PUBLISHING. (Editor's note: Sweet Publishing Company is the source of heretical literature. The danger is that Sweet sales people palm themselves off as faithful members of the church and frequently telephone congregations attempting to sell materials. Please be reminded that Sweet's Bible School curriculum comes from David G. Cooke; Gospel Advocate's series is from Scripture Press [Baptist]; Century's material is produced by Standard Publishing [Christian Church]. These materials were written by denominational people and originally published by denominational companies. It is disingenuous to sell denominational materials by giving a misleading impression. Candor should compel publishers to tell the truth about the origin and content of their merchandise.) Published October 1996 The year is 2002 in prophecy and YOU ARE THERE. Kenneth Sublett ksublett@piney.com ============================== Donnie Cruz Perverse Things on TITHING -- Only Now Being Taught at Madison August 16 2002, 4:29 PM PERVERSE THINGS ON TITHING - ONLY NOW BEING TAUGHT AT MADISON ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Tithe, by Dr. C. Bruce White (Madison Marcher, Aug. 7, 2002) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [The tithe is God’s. Leviticus 27:30 says that all the tithe of the land of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, it is the Lord’s; it is holy to the Lord. We have no right to withhold it, borrow it, spend it, or use it at all. It is holy and belongs to the Lord. Tithing is a law of God that has gone unaltered for centuries. Malachi did not repeal it, he amplified it (Malachi 3:7-12); Jesus did not repeal it, He commended it (Matthew 23:23); the Hebrew writer did not repeal it, he affirmed it (Hebrews 7:4-8). Someone says it is Old Testament and means nothing now. Do you believe that the rainbow is a sign that the earth will never be destroyed by water again? Where did you learn that? Do you believe that seed time and harvest time will come each year? Where did you learn that? Do you believe that God will pour out abundant blessing upon the person who brings the tithe (10%) into the storehouse? Where can you learn that? The Old Testament is given for our learning, I Corinthians 10:11. Take care in deciding what is ceremonial law and what is a declared promise of God.] ================================================== ================================================== CONTEMPORARY WORSHIP (August 11, 2002) ================================================== The songs from the hymnal were: “Send the Light”; “Christ Returneth”; “Be With Me, Lord.” “We Praise Thee, O God” was substituted for a new praise song, “Said I Wasn’t.” “This Little Light of Mine” was also sung. The “praise” songs led by the “Worship Leader” and the Contemporary Worship “Praise Team” choir were: --- “Light the Fire” --- “Surround Us O Lord” --- “You Are My All In All” --- “Jesus Is a Friend Next to You” --- “You’re The One” --- “Lord Be There” (for me) --- “Shout to the Lord” Since some of the “praise” songs were new, the amplified rendition by the church choir of these WELL-REHEARSED new songs had to be LISTENED TO FIRST by the members of the congregation interested enough to learn them. The overriding effect of the team’s amplified voices certainly caused so much jubilation and excitement to the leaders and to the listening congregation that the preacher had to make an inspirational comment before he delivered his sermon. I believe he was referring to such thrilling moments when he said, “Well, it's been church already hasn't it?” The sermon, though its transcription is not of good quality, is following. Keep in mind that the congregation has already been introduced to the tithing manual, “Take God At His Word” and subtitled “Experience the Power of Giving,” authored by Dr. Kregg Hood. The 79-page booklet lists: Four Words from the Lord: 1. Word One: I Will Make You Rich in Every Way 2. Word Two: I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You 3. Word Three: I Trust You to Manage Material Resources 4. Word Four: I Will Help You Give More Than You Can Imagine Power Principles of Tithing: 1. Tithing motivates greater faithfulness. 2. Tithing releases God’s financial blessings! 3. Tithing expands Kingdom work. 4. Tithing changes spending habits. ================================================== ================================================== Chapter 2: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You” (Basis of Sermon Delivered) By Dr. C. Bruce White ================================================== Well, it's been church already hasn't it? And, Russ, the best is yet to come. Well, I enjoy being together on the Lord's Day. I ... I don't ... I just don't understand why there are folks who don't want to come into the assembly on the Lord's Day. That amazes me. It's so good to have all of you here today to worship with us, and [uh] how many of you read Chapter 2? I thought I heard someone say, "Chapter 2 of what?" [~~] All right, let's go ahead to Chapter 2 because if you haven't read Chapter 2, you're just not going to know what we're talking about today. That included Chapter 3 [~~]. You can read Chapter 3 this week. Anyone read Chapter 4 yet? That's good. You're not [~] class. That's good. All right, Chapter 3 is next week. I was visiting yesterday, my wife and I was with a couple, and [uh] Larry Sherry with us -- what does the two chapters that's been to them -- has pled to their lives. And that's really what we want in this [uh]. Imagine if we could go get 5 more dollars a week out of you. We’d be [~] and puttin' guilt trips and everything else on you []. You know I could get 5 bucks ... I ... I know that [uh] but that is not our intent. That is not the purpose of giving money. I ... I ... I think you all know [] that it is a fact that the ... the church is [uh] in need financially [~~]. But we're not looking at all of that. I really don't care about budgets and contributions and numbers and all of this bunch. I want more than anything else in the world ... for you to receive the blessings of God, and that's what this is all about ... for you to be blessed by the Lord in ways that you cannot imagine. And I ...I speak [uh] kind of personally on that -- it's been a practice in our family of 10 percent giving. And [uh] we started that when we didn't have 10 percent, [uh] we didn't have 2 percent, we didn't have "O" percent. We gave 10 of what we had, and the Lord blessed us unbelievably, and [uh] not by our power, our might, but the Spirit of the Lord. And I want you to enjoy those blessings [~~~]. Well, Chuck [~] then did a little follow-up on [~] what our people think about these days: winning the lottery, instant billions. Well, [~] did some follow-up work, and [uh] he reported some things about that. He reported ... reported for instance about La Rose Graeta of the state of Washington who won in some lotto 400 dollars a week for the rest of her life. She ran off to hide in her apartment [~~] secluded [~~] a nerve problem she never had before in her entire life. She said that everyone that knows her [~] her [~] tries to [~~] on her. And she said (quote), "People are so mean -- I hope you win the lottery and see what happens to you." Well, that's sad. And then there's reports that the [~] of New York who won the Irish Sweepstakes, a million dollars. And with interest alone, that's [~] thousand a year. The father in this family was a [~~], and Johnny, a 26-year old son, was a dockworker loading crates on the dock. And Tim, the other son, was going to night school. And so Pop split the million with his sons, and they all said that this money is not going to change “the plans of our lives.” One year later, [~~~~~~~] the boys weren't speaking to Pop or to each other. Johnny was chasing expensive racehorses, and Tim was chasing expensive girls. Mom accused Pop of hiding his stash from her, and within two years all of them were in [~] tax evasion. Mom said it's the devil's own money. The boys are now studying to become hard alcoholics. And all of these people who hoped and prayed for sudden wealth had their prayers answered. Well, I don't know about you, but I think I'll take my blessing just a little at a time from the Lord. Jenny and I have prayed almost all of our married life that if the Lord did bless us with ... with just enough and never too much. I don't want the Lord to give me more than I can handle. And so if we invest ourselves in godliness and in the way that God tells us to deal with His blessings, then He just continually brings [~~~]. It's just a basic thing. The basic thing -- that's just [~] the lives of an awful lot of people. Now, who said, "It's more blessed to give than to receive"? Was that some [~] who were working on a sermon outlines and said, "Boy that one we do appreciate"? Was it a commentator interpreting some text in the Bible that said, "It's more blessed to give than to receive”? No, it was Jesus. And Paul quotes Jesus along that line in Acts chapter 20 verse 35: "It's more blessed to give than to receive." So the question that comes to you and me, how blessed do we want to be? Just how blessed do we want to be! In Malachi chapter 3 and verse 10 God says, "Test Me. Try Me." The Hebrew word that's translated "test" or "trial" there is a word that means "to examine." "Examine Me," God says, "to see if you bring into My house the tithes, I will open the windows of heaven and pour out a bless that you will not be able to receive." That is a promise from God. He says, “If My people will honor the tithes, I will bless them so great they can't imagine.” Jesus kind of picks up on this theme in Luke 6:38. And I think [~~~] probably says it this way: "Give and it shall be given unto you, shaken down, pressed down, and running over (and the Greek says right here) into your lap." Jesus says, “You give -- I'll give back right into your lap, I'll lay it in your lap.” (I like that Greek well.) And/or Jesus is just reaffirming what Malachi said that God promises to bless the people that bring the right gifts into the storehouse. Well, Jesus said, “You're going to be measured by what you measure.” So just how much do you want? He's trying to say, “You know, here's God's bank and I'm here standing at the vault door, and [uh] you can come in and however much you ever want [] back [] you give [] and that just appeared.” And you give 10 percent up front, God's going to open the vault for you, and [uh] that's just a real exciting thing to see. Now, if that is just the case and that it is [] why doesn't every Christian tithe? Well, I don't know. I have some ideas that I've thought about this long enough [~] more ideas about it. One is some people may be afraid that God won't keep His end of the bargain. Now nobody is going to stand up to admit that, but our actions seem to differ. If one half of any given Sunday attendance does not give a single thing, then [~~~] or we don't believe God is going to take care of us. And so it maybe we are afraid that God is not really going to do that; we are questioning His keeping His promises. Secondly, there are others that might oppose to [] the idea from [] they go, "I don't believe in that [uh] health and wealth prophecy." Well, let me assure you this morning that Malachi 3:10 and Luke 6:38 were not written to encourage the manipulation of God []. You're ... you're ... not going to ... to pan off these [~][child cries]. If you're [~] ... if you're [~~], “Oh, but I'll give 10 percent just to see how much I get back,” you don't understand. And in fact, you're [~~], “If I give 50 percent I'll get a whole lot more back.” No, you're not going to get anything back. God [~~~~] and ... and ... and the person seeking, willing to do God's will who understands God's purpose, intent, and what God wants for us in life. I don't know if you know the name or not, Truett Cathy, but he's a tremendous fan of his, founder and chairman of the Chick-fil-A Corporation. And [uh] he will not go to Chick-fil-A today because Chick-fil-A [~] don't open on Sunday. [Uh] Truett set that policy at the beginning. [Uh] he teaches and has been teaching for 40 years Sunday school class of teenage children. [Uh] he operates on his own 9 orphan homes. [Uh] he provides 40 [~] scholarships for young people to go to college. And he supports individually a camp of over a 1,000 children every summer. And one of Cathy's philosophies is one that I really like [~~~] that he says he tries to teach all these young doers and that is he says, "Money is nice to have as long as you got it in your hand and not in your heart." Boy, I like that. But I only happen to believe that money is to spend and give away. And when your heart is set on money, you're in trouble. Now, there's nothing wrong with planning. There's nothing wrong with providing. There's nothing wrong with all the little things that are done in the framework of working within the [~~] that God has allowed you to call “thine” own. But the money mustn't dominate. And so you've got to keep money out of your heart. [~] passages on the rewards of giving so that God wants to work through us, and we can trust in Him to provide. And then I think some Christians are convinced that tithing is still a part of God's plan. But I want to insure you that tithing is still God's plan for today. Tithing is a common thing in the first century church. Both Jewish Christians and Gentile converts practiced tithing. Now, tithing simply refers to 10 percent of your money, property, wealth, or crops, whatever. And tithing has the idea that that 10 percent is the first 10 percent; so in the Old Testament when God gave directions to His people, the Jews, about tithing. By the way, tithing is not just [uh] a Jewish thing. It was practiced in Egypt and Babylon and Syria. It was offered with a spiritual [~]. And [~] the Israelites were told to tithe. They were told to take, in Chronicles, you can find this in Exodus and in other places, [uh] that they were giving the first fruits to God. The first 10 percent is God's. Now Malachi said when you give, borrow, or spend any of that first 10 percent, you are robbing God. Now, folks, I don't know about you, but I don't want to go to the judgment having stolen from God. After it's bad enough to steal from your neighbor, I don't want to be up there stealing from God. The first 10 percent belongs to God. Any of you have a problem with that? And is ... is that a bad deal? I think you still got 90 percent. To work the debt off, I think that helps you with a mess any day. I want to get tithing straight. So that was the first 10 percent of that which belongs to God. Now, "tithing" is referred to in the Bible about 50 times, and "tithe" 13 times, "tithes" (plural) 13 times, and a "tenth" 45 times. The New Testament refers to tithing in the likes of Jesus in Luke 15:12, with the Pharisees in Matthew 23:23, and with Abraham in Hebrews 7 and verse 2. So Abraham was tithing long before Moses gave the Law. And ... and ... and so tithing has been a thing with God all along. Now, someone may think that, say, “Well, I don't tithe; I don't believe in tithing because we're not under the Law and [uh] we're not under the Old Testament; that's the Old Testament.” Listen, 1st Corinthians 6:10, "There'll be no thieves ... to inherit the kingdom of God [passage not audible, KJV by d.c.]." Let me ask you a question. And you ... you think about this at home. Sometimes [~~] after a rain shower the sun comes out and we get a rainbow in the shower, do you think that's just a happenstance of nature? Do rainbows mean anything to you? [~~~~~~] God said [~~] destroy the world again by a flood, isn't it? Where you learned that? John the Baptist preached that in the New Testament? The book of Hebrews? Where did you get that? That's the Old Testament. We still believe today that God [~] promised [~] the flood [~] the sign of the rainbow. Well, [~] the Old Testament. Some of you got out last spring and you plowed your little topsoil and you buried little seeds and all; why did you do that? Well, because you know that it's going to grow up and in the fall you're going to be able to produce [~~~~~]. Where you learned that? They taught that in agriculture at Auburn University; you better believe this. But I knew it long before that. Why? Because God said so, there's seedtime, harvest time. You plant a seed; you're going to harvest crops. That's Old Testament. You believe it. You practice it. You think God's promise is right. Well, God said, "If my people will bring the tithes to my storehouse, I will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing to them they can't receive." Where you learned that? Old Testament. (Malachi 3:10) Oh, well, that's Old Testament. Well, Jesus said, over in Luke 6:38, "If you give to me, I will give back to you, pressed down, shaken over, running over." That's New Testament on the Old Testament saying, if you give the tithes, God will open the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing. Now, folks, that's what I want you to learn this month. I don't want you grumping and griping 'cause you gotta give more money. God don't want your money. God doesn't need your money. God wants you to part from it. And He wants to bless you on top of that. And I've talked with folks, many, many folks, who have financial problems, and financial difficulties [~~~~] church [~~] church [~~~] debt [~~] new cars. God's counsel has always been: give 10 percent to the church. Give 10 percent to the Lord. I've never, never had anyone come back and say, “I've tried this and it didn't work -- I'm sorry I did it.” I'm telling you God keeps His promise. Whatever those promises are. Why were you baptized into Christ? Because God promised to forgive your sins. Right? Do you believe it? Belief is fun. He is faithful. Bring the tithes into His storehouse, and He'll bless you. Tithing symbolizes gratitude to God. Tenth symbolizes [~~~] as a whole. I'm going to use this statement a lot: "God owns the cattle; we just tend His ranch." We be grateful; therefore, storing it. One of [uh] John [~]'s books about the Senator Bob C[~] [~~~~~~] C[~] [~] about a time he took his kids into a fast food restaurant, and they were sitting there eating, and eating those French fries, and his little boy was [~~~~~~~] and the little boy said, "Dad, don't take my fries." And C[~] was stunned, and he kinda wondered, “What ... what's happening here?” And then he caught the meaning of this [~] moment, and he said, “You know, my son just doesn't understand about the situation here. He doesn't understand where those French fries came from. What's the source of his [~] is. And he thinks he doesn't understand. You know, if I wanted to I could take the whole sack or he doesn't understand. If I wanted to I could go up to the counter and buy me a dozen orders.” He says, “What I want him to understand is [~~~] where the fries came from and have gratitude [~] to share with the one who's brought that blessing to you.” Isn't that kind of the way we are with God? I mean, God doesn't want it all; we just have what we have because He's so gracious [~~]. And then He said, now remember folks, [~~~~] give of my money. See, tithing brings gratitude. [~~] to understand who owns it all anyway. Tithing strengthens our devotion to God. It's as if the tithing helps us to kind of [~~~]. It forces us into considering how much God forgives for us, and how little we do for ourselves, actually. And tithing insures great blessings from God. In Matthew 6:33, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things..." - what are those things? They're food, clothing, and shelter. [~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~] The average contribution of an average church of Christ is 2.5 percent of that church's income. That means if the entire church at any given point decided to obey God's command taken in His word to bring 10 percent tithes to the storehouse that entire [~] budget would increase 400 percent. Now, you image a church who increased itself in giving 400 percent. What kind of programs would be going on? What kind of excitement would be in that church? [~~] supposed to be running over with in a little while, wouldn't it? The blessings would [~~~] His people when they bring the right gift to the storehouse. That's [~~], folks. That's not just sermon outline; that's what God says. Somebody says, “Oh ... brother [~] talkin' about tithes in church ... talkin' about tithes in the church [~~~]. Some of the elders talked to me after the first service [~~~]. We have long, too long, allowed a certain attitude for the elders in the church of Christ; that is, if they're good if we [~]. And I'm tired of having my own [~] flock with that image. Our evangelism and our outreach and our soul-winning programs have been crippled and [~] for years because we've [~~] ... [~~] [uh] ... [~~] [uh] ... Our spiritual development and strength to compel you in camaraderie and in the work of the Lord had been hindered and hardened and derailed for years because we've been [~]. I tell you, folks, we've been frugal financially in partners with God because we think we can't tithe. Now, I've talked about the Bible, and I've talked to you about the church of Christ [~~~]. The Bible talks about all those things going on. The Bible talks about the disciples of Christ doing those things. And I'm ready to live by it and not just talk about it. And I'm not talking about billing people. And I'm not talking about taking names and keeping numbers. I'm talking about a Christian heart that discerns the way of God. Ten percent of what God lends to you [~~]. Luke teaches it. And when Israel failed to turn that 10 percent in, they lived under a curse. I tell you we're not going to flourish, and we're not going to [~~] until we bring in the right gift to the storehouse, until we give what God has said we owe Him. [~~~~~] Now, Jesus said, “Your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and the Pharisees. The scribes and the Pharisees was legalistic in giving 10 percent. Jesus said [~~~]. [~~~]. They want more money. They [~~~~]. [~~~~~] ... in matters that are most important to you and to the congregation that you have providing for the work of the church. I'll tell you, if your heart's not right with the Lord today, what a wonderful time for you to come and make it right. We're going to sing a song that will encourage you to do that if you'll come if you need the Lord's pardon. ================================================== This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Aug 16, 2002 4:31 PM ============================== Kenneth Sublett Perverse Things on Tithing August 16 2002, 5:21 PM Well, Donnie, that is a mouth full. However, a quick check proves that with all forms of urges to restore the church to JEWISH LEGALISM, the sermonizing contains the SEED of its own destruction. After being DISSOCIATED or put into mild schizophrenia with the SACRIFICIAL MUSIC of the Levitical Praise Team mocking Lord Jesus, it is not possible to digest all of this as a sermon. Therefore, I will just pick up some of the key claims which seem to explode in the good doctor's face. Bruce White makes the false claim that: "Tithing is a common thing in the first century church. Both Jewish Christians and Gentile converts practiced tithing. Now, tithing simply refers to 10 percent of your money, property, wealth, or crops, whatever. " That is wrong in every syllable so I will take a look at that one later. For now: Bruce says that "it is much better to give than receive." Bruce White's Objective: to force or coerce the congregation into TITHING by claiming that the "giving" here means tithing, and that the RECEIVER of the tithe is the paymaster of unbiblical SALARIES. How can I say that? Well, the proof text he quotes OUTLAWS even the begging bag to hoard extra food. Perhaps a hidden agenda is that this example is to those who go out give the following: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: ---freely ye have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8 You remember what was quoted about Kregg Hood! Quite different than Dr. White's APPLICATION, Paul warns the "many" who had flocked to the church to become "preachers." Paul establishes a PATTERN which OUTLAWS what Doctor White claims for himself: "For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thess 3:7 ----"Neither did we eat any mans bread for nought; "but wrought with labour and travail night and day, -----"that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 2 Thess 3:8 "Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 2 Thess 3: 9 Sure, Paul says that it is legal for the temple worker to be given a daily dole of food while in the temple because he cannot LEAVE the temple while slaughtering animals to the beat of the musical (hard bondage noise) Levites. However, you cannot SELL the free WATER OF THE WORD and still demand a salary while violating the command of Jesus to GO. No wonder that the Jubilee movement (for the atonement) wants to repudiate "Beholding the Pattern." Here are some more quick notes because you MUST silence the singers and critically review and TEST THE SPIRITS: http://www.piney.com/ChBlessedWh.html The evangelist is BLESSED only if he GOES, becomes a vocational minister like all priesthoods, and never try to RIDE on the backs of WIDOWS like the Scribes, Pharisees and Hypocrites (actors). Mega churches, in effect, ROB the evangelist and the lost and that might be worth a curse or two. Ken Sublett Discuss This Topic At SundaySchoolinExile.com This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Aug 16, 2002 5:58 PM ============================== Kenneth Sublett Perverse things on tithing August 18 2002, 6:46 PM This is my promised further look at Bruce White's sermon on the TITHE still being LEGAL for Christians. Part Three: Is Bruce correct? Is the rainbow proof that tithing is still LEGAL? No. The rainbow and the widow's mite proves that God is not petty: He is not involved in a child's game of Dialing for Dollars or CURSING the widows for not giving 10% of their CASH. The rainbow is proof that He is not a child who plays GIVING GAMES and then CURSES people who don't give the full 10% of Cash when not even under Law was CASH given to the Levites who made animal sacrifices and mediated with God BEFORE Jesus finished the Jubilee, made the ultimate sacrifice to the beat of musical mockers and took His blood into the holy place. The Jubilee--for the atonement--launched the Catholic's call back to ride on Mother's back and back under LEGALISM. The rise of the musical mocking teams always causes the righteous to flee from the clear implications. Now, the restoration of the TITHE fully repudiates the GOSPEL which includes the end of animal sacrifices. If you participate you might as well allow yourselves to be circumcised as a mark of the covenant because the blood of Christ has been withdrawn and as He proved in Mark 13 and Paul confirmed in 2 Cor 3, He speaks to you in parables or songs but never lets you in on the mysteries of the kingdom. See that the MANY FOLD return of God is the free Water of the Word and not a POT OF GOLD as promised by the Seed Money Givers. http://www.piney.com/ChTitheBWRainbow.html If anyone wants to GO LEGALISTIC on you we have noted that you have their authority to be legalistic. Therefore, we have clearly shown that there is no LAW OF GIVING. This was confirmed by the early Christians who gave to the poor and otherwise needy as required. This means that you have the authority of Jesus, Paul, the practice of the early church and now the sermon on LEGALISM in tithing to store BY YOURSELF a sum of money so that you always have to give ALMS to the poor or as YOU decide to help. It is absolutely consistent with the claim of being grace centered that you must "worship" or "praise" your way into God's presence or favor or that you have to GIVE HIM money to keep Him from cursing you and to seduce Him into giving you MORE than you gave Him. When they accuse you of being SECTARIAN just remember that they are blaming you for the AFFLICTION they impose upon you: that is their God-ordained job or there would be no fall from grace and from the Word of His Grace. If you want to tithe we have shown you where Jesus says that you should "invest it" where you will get NO monetary return. http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html This CANNOT be disputed and it IS NOT just a personal opinion: it is absolute Bible before the old MODERN Bible became Obsolete as replaced by apostles with the gift of revelation. Paul said "this is not a commandment" and therefore you do not SIN if you do not lay by your food money to support the rich but lay it by or SAVE IT UP for the ALMS Ken Sublett This message has been edited on Aug 18, 2002 7:01 PM ============================== Kenneth Sublett Perverse Things on Tithing August 19 2002, 6:20 PM Bruce White: "Tithing is a common thing in the first century church. Both Jewish Christians and Gentile converts practiced tithing. Now, tithing simply refers to 10 percent of your money, property, wealth, or crops, whatever. Not a syllable of TRUTH there!! "There is a commercial where this man sings a jingle. Hey mister banker, -----Tell me if you can, What part of 'free' -----Don't you understand.' One of Bruce White's PROOF-TEXTS EXAMINED: FOOD and DRINK were the PRODUCE of the TITHE: No Cash. Since Jesus died to PAY THE TITHE, He said, "Just cool it." "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? Matthew 6: 31 "(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. Matthew 6: 32 Jesus did not legalize the LAW OF TITHING to pay for God's gift of free food, drink and clothing. Rather, to avoice the FAILURE at Mount Sinai in their musical idolatry, Jesus says: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6: 33 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6: 34 The tithe was only at the end of the year when the INCREASE could be counted. Then, the sheep were put in the Levites pens and the preserved grain and wine and oil was STORED UP to last for the entire year other than some food from the sacrifices. Therefore, this is a DIRECT REPUDIATION of the Temple Storehouse which specificially was to TAKE THOUGHT for the entire year's supply of food and drink. http://www.piney.com/ChTitheChristian.html I'm Through with tithing: If you want to play LEVITICAL MUSICIAN carrying out HARD BONDAGE while you crucify Jesus all over again with musical mocking... If you want to hire a priest to MEDIATE the word... If you want to TITHE your Cash with no Biblical or Historical precident... If you want to LAY BY IN STORE as the same TITHING LEGALISM... Then be my guest but I hope that you can BEAR every jot and tittle of the Law of Moses "Added because of transgression" that transgression being MUSICAL IDOLATRY. Having the TITHE imposed on you proves that you are repeating the ETERNAL CYCLE reserved for those who CANNOT hear the Spirit Voice. Ken Sublett This message has been edited on Aug 19, 2002 8:29 PM ============================== Donnie Cruz PERVERSE THINGS ON TITHING - MORE FROM KREGG HOOD-ISM ON 8/18/02 August 19 2002, 12:15 PM PERVERSE THINGS ON TITHING - MORE FROM KREGG HOOD-ISM ON 8/18/02 This is the third Sunday in the series of lessons derived from the tithing MANUAL written and preached by two doctors of the old law of tithing, Dr. Kregg Hood and Dr. C. Bruce White, respectively. Old law in that Dr. White claims that it was a “common thing” practiced in the first century church by both Jewish Christians and Gentile converts. That tithing “was practiced in Egypt and Babylon and Syria” and by using the “rainbow” illustration as a “forever” symbol are good reasons to make tithing for the Levitical priesthood binding as “Christian” tithing upon New Testament believers. Please review previous posts on August 1, 2002, “Is Christian” Tithing at Madison Next?” and on August 16, 2002, “Perverse Things on Tithing - Only Now Being Taught at Madison.” Dr. C. Bruce White wrote an article in the Madison Marcher (August 7, 2002) entitled “The Tithe.” He stated, “The Old Testament is given for our learning.” What a perversion to state that “tithing is a law of God that has gone unaltered for centuries,” just as many other old laws have been, and AT THE SAME TIME [ALSO] to state that tithing is still a law for Christians but NOT the OTHER UNALTERED LAWS. Now, is this Dr. White’s formula: TITHING = REGULAR GIVING? ================================================== REGULAR GIVING, by Dr. C. Bruce White (Madison Marcher, Aug. 14, 2002) ================================================== [[[The command that Paul gave to the church at Corinth was clear, “upon the first day of every week…” If we desire to be blessed every week, then we are to give every week. The Lord does not just give us air to breathe when we are about to suffocate, but it is there all the time. The sun doesn’t just shine when we need light or just before we freeze, it is there all the time. God is not worshiped in giving when a great financial need arises, but we are to worship Him every first day of the week. It has been evidenced that constant joy is found in consistent worship. Those who are frustrated religiously are those who are spasmodic in their attendance and worship. Let’s begin to bring our tithe on the first day of the week and find the real joy of worship and feel the blessing of participating with God in His great work on the earth. Will you be involved in this great ministry?]]] ================================================== ================================================== CHAPTER 2: “I TRUST YOU TO MANAGE MATERIAL RESOURCES (Basis of Sermon from Dr. Kregg Hood’s Manual on Tithing) Delivered by Dr. C. Bruce White ================================================== Here’s a brief summary of Dr. White’s sermon on August 18, 2002. The sermon on “Becoming a Generous Giver” outlined the following main thoughts: (1) “Think Like a Godly Servant.” God owns everything and gives money and possessions to servants. Understanding God’s ownership gives us balance. Thinking like a godly servant keeps us keep materialistic desires in check. (2) “Act Like a Trusted Manager.” Right thinking leads to right action … quit cutting yourself off from the blessing of God. The Scripture gives practical instructions (I Cor. 16:1,2) on giving. This passage shows the following characteristics of giving: managing, consistency, personal, systematical, proportional. (3) “Feel Like an Heir.” God says, “Test Me.” God says, “Trust Me and I’ll take care of you.” After telling a story about a Catholic priest commenting on confession, “I have never heard anyone confess the sin of covetousness,” Dr. White averred, “[In my own experience] no one has ever come forward to confess covetousness.” ================================================== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ How and why did this manual on tithing ever get introduced to the members of the Madison Church of Christ? Kenneth Sublett, has provided us scriptural and in-depth researched studies and materials on this very important issue on TITHING and on those that advocate it. He states that “Kregg Hood, charismatic false teacher about Tithing brings heresy to Madison Church of Christ by C. Bruce White. Taking God at His Word: Dr. C. Bruce White at Madison Church of Christ announced that it will follow the TITHING plan book from Sweet Publishing by Kregg Hood. This is consistent with the charismatic but legalist MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM and other charismatic activities which have helped destroy a once large - if prideful - church.” For complete information on the author, please link to: http://www.piney.com/KreggHood.html (“Kregg Hood”) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Bruce White: “Tithing is a common thing in the first century church. Both Jewish Christians and Gentile converts practiced tithing. Now, tithing simply refers to 10 percent of your money, property, wealth, or crops, whatever… And tithing has the idea that that 10 percent is the first 10 percent, so in the Old Testament when God gave directions to His people, the Jews, about tithing. By the way, tithing is not just [uh] a Jewish thing. It was practiced in Egypt and Babylon and Syria.” (This misconception is addressed in the links below.) Bruce White posed this question to the audience, “Now, who said, ‘It’s more blessed to give than to receive’”? Kenneth Sublett says in regard to tithing as a “common thing”: “So is the Sabbath as WORSHIP DAY of Babylonian origin. This is why God prescribed REST and not WORSHIP for the Sabbath.” He continues, “All of the Hebrew tithing was given to the POOR. The priests and Levites were relatively poor because they did not receive a portion of the free lands in Canaan. However, like all priesthoods they worked for their living when not on duty. It doesn’t matter how much EVIDENCE you can collect about people getting rich as the result of tithing, the fact is that the Bible has to be evaluated based on Biblical evidence…. No, the early church DID NOT TITHE. It would have repudiated Lord Jesus Christ.” http://www.piney.com/ChTitheBWBabylon.html (“Restoring the Babylonian Tithe”) http://www.piney.com/ChBlessedWh.html (“It Is More Blessed to Give Than to Receive”) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Bruce White: “The tithe is God’s…. We have no right to withhold it, borrow it, spend it, or use it at all…. Tithing is a law of God that has gone unaltered for centuries. Malachi did not repeal it, he amplified it…. God says, ‘Test Me, Try me … Examine Me … to see if you bring into My house the tithes, I will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing that you will not be able to receive.’” Kenneth Sublett: “Is the failure to TITHE robbing God by robbing the priests? No. Malachi said: And now, O PRIESTS, this commandment is for YOU. Malachi 2:1. Whatever our religion, most of us have a deep itch to know what the Bible teaches and are deeply troubled when it is used to whack people over the head. These notes are from our web page and are prompted by one of the most popular questions on the the Internet. ‘Do Christians have to tithe?’ The Bible clearly says, ‘No.’ Everyone is free to give everything but no one is free to demand anything but love. Romans 13:8.” http://www.piney.com/HoTithe2.html (“Tithing - Malachi”) http://www.piney.com/BruceWhiteMadMadTithe.html (“Tithing, Clergy Robbing Laity”) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Kenneth Sublett writes: “Dr. White proves that tithing is still in effect because Paul said that the Old Testament was for our examples. Unfortunately, most of the examples are WHAT NOT TO DO. This is the case with his PROOF TEXT. The EXAMPLE was Israel's fall back into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Because of this transgression God took away the Book of The Covenant, gave them The Book of the Law and imposed the tribe of LEVI to mediate until Christ came. The TITHE was to support these animal sacrifices made to the great noise which was not MUSIC. Therefore, to IMPOSE the music and the TITHE means that the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Lord Jesus has been MOCKED just as they MUSICALLY MOCKED Him to death. The FALL into MUSICAL rituals fits the Sinai Pattern and demands that the TITHE be imposed as the old are dismissed and the YOUTH lead the way into CANAAN LAND where tithes were collected and Israel fell totally under Canaanite Baalism. http://www.piney.com/WhiteEnsamples.html (“Falling from Grace through Tithing”) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Bruce White: “Do you believe that the rainbow is a sign that the earth will never be destroyed by water again? … Do you believe that God will pour out abundant blessing upon the person who brings the tithe (10%) into the storehouse?” In the sermon, he stated, “… after a rain shower the sun comes out and we get a rainbow in the shower, do you think that’s just a happenstance of nature? Do rainbows mean anything to you?” In today’s sermon, he equated the verses in I Corinthians 16:1,2 “LET [emphasis, d.c.] every one of you lay by him in store” as GIVING to the LAW OF TITHING. Kenneth Sublett: “Is Bruce correct? Is the rainbow proof that tithing is still LEGAL? No. The rainbow and the widow's mite proves that God is not petty: He is not involved in a child's game of Dialing for Dollars or CURSING the widows for not giving 10% of their CASH. “The rainbow is proof that He is not a child who plays GIVING GAMES and then CURSES people who don't give the full 10% of Cash when not even under Law was CASH given to the Levites who made animal sacrifices and mediated with God BEFORE Jesus finished the Jubilee, made the ultimate sacrifice to the beat of musical mockers and took His blood into the holy place.” It is clearly shown “that there is no LAW OF GIVING.” http://www.piney.com/ChTitheBWRainbow.html (“The Rainbow Pledge of God’s Grace”) http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html (“I Corinthians 16:2”) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the final analysis, please keep in mind that the [scriptural] TRUTH is that we are encouraged to give according to our abilities and liberally and that our righteousness is to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. NOWHERE was New Testament GIVING ever made into the Old Testament LAW OF TITHING as that would be a historical impossibility. Similarly, NOWHERE in the New Testament is THE LAW OF TITHING ever equated to GIVING as one has been prospered, nor has it ever been made BINDING upon New Testament followers of Christ. NO ONE is ever being denied to give most or all of what a Christian has, and to “LET everyone of you LAY BY HIM in store …” is definitely NOT THE LAW OF TITHING. I believe it’s time that someone took the time to check on Dr. White’s lineage and descent. What other perverse things on tithing is he going to educate the New Testament Christians at Madison on? There’s one more lesson (CHAPTER 4) to go in the series from the HOOD-istic manual on tithing. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This message has been edited on Aug 19, 2002 12:29 PM ============================== Donnie Cruz PERVERSE THINGS ON TITHING - Dr. White Once Knew and Knew Better (or Did He); Must Pervert August 26 2002, 1:14 PM PERVERSE THINGS ON TITHING - Dr. White Once Knew and Knew Better (or Did He); Must Pervert the Truth to Solve Church Financial Woes. There’s hardly a Sunday anymore in which Keith Lancaster, the WORSHIP LEADER, is not glorified and idolized as the ONE who connects. Even Chris Gingles, one of the elders, thanked God in his closing prayer for Keith “for connecting us with You and with each other.” Wait a minute, what happened to Jesus our mediator, through whose name we are to do all things? What did Jesus mean about worshiping the Father in John 4:23,24: “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth..” Music, in and of itself, is more and more being closely and almost exclusively associated with worship. Sermons are often not devoid of religious jokes to make false teachings seem less fallacious and more accommodating and acceptable. Even in addressing the Father in prayer, there has been a de-emphasis in the commonalty on feeling awestruck that God deserves our profound reverence and respectful fear inspired by His authority and power. The amplified voices of the “praise team” members continue to dominate the singing. ONLY THEY can sing and PERFORM THE COMPLEX HARMONY of certain songs - the teaching of the message isn’t usually there or is greatly diminished as you’re learning the “music”; but then you must LISTEN TO the “praise team” FIRST. (You know, I’m really insulted for those who can read notes but must rely on the praise team leading FIRST.) I feel bad for many in the congregation who are now content to do their PART by just LISTENING TO the team PERFORM. And what about the survey of songs this Sunday? The worship guide page for the “CONTEMPORARY” service had this to say: “WHAT ARE YOUR FAVORITE WORSHIP SONGS? PLEASE COMPLETE THE SURVEY AVAILABLE TODAY TO HELP US WITH PLANS FOR THE FALL. THANKS!” Chapter 4 in the HOOD-istic manual on TITHING states: “I Will Help You Give More Than You Can Imagine.” This chapter quotes 2 Corinthians 8:7 (NIV), “But just as you excel in everything - in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us - see that you also excel in this grace of giving.” KJV states, “Therefore, as ye abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.” The manual states, “In the next few pages you’ll discover: It’s vital to keep growing in your giving; God is at work today in the lives of those who take him at his word; God works through you - especially when you give in faith.” Dr. White’s sermon was titled, “The Joy of Generosity.” The message was: (1) Stay faithful to God; he mentioned again the “test me” promise from God and being “MOVED BY THE SPIRIT to give”; that generous giving produces spiritual growth; that it is impossible to stay faithful without giving; that giving keeps us from materialism; (2) Support the local church - the church is like a second family; that when the church is going well, we all FEEL better; (3) Leave a legacy - giving leaves a legacy for your children; (4) Let’s make an important decision today. He warned certain people (wonder who they were/are): “PROTEST IN GIVING IS SINFUL; YOU CANNOT PROTEST YOUR PERSONAL AGGRAVATION BY KEEPING […] FROM GIVING TO THE LOCAL CHURCH.” Is Dr. White confused? Is he taking “God at His Word” or is he TAKING Dr. Kregg Hood’s “Take God at His Word”? Either way, he must have been serious when he said earlier, “We are going to learn some things from God’s Word that will REARRANGE OUR THINKING about how God relates to His people.” When did LIBERALITY in GIVING become a command or law of tithing? Please refer to various links provided for you in previous Sundays’ posts. Just who Dr. Kregg Hood is that Dr. Bruce White uses as a resource? Validate the twisted references that Dr. White has used in “proving God” in Malachi, in restoring the “Egyptian, Babylonian and Syrian” tithing principles, in stating that the Jewish and pagan converts tithed in the early church, in misusing the rainbow as a perpetual sign for the tithing for the Levitical priesthood, in substituting tithing for or equating tithing to the liberality of giving that the churches in Galatia and in Corinth exercised for OTHER congregations in need: http://www.piney.com/KreggHood.html (“Kregg Hood”) http://www.piney.com/HoTithe2.html (“Tithing - Malachi”) http://www.piney.com/ChTitheBWBabylon.html ("Restoring the Babylonian Tithe") http://www.piney.com/ChTitheChristian.html (“Bruce White: Jewish and Gentiles Tithed in the Church?”) http://www.piney.com/ChTitheBWRainbow.html ("The Rainbow Pledge of God's Grace") http://www.piney.com/BruceWhiteMadMadTithe.html (“Tithing, Clergy Robbing Laity”) http://www.piney.com/ChBlessedWh.html ("It Is More Blessed to Give Than to Receive”) http://www.piney.com/WhiteEnsamples.html ("Falling from Grace through Tithing") http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html ("I Corinthians 16:2") Reports are that while the weekly budget for the year has been $43,560, giving on 8/4/02 was $37,641. Chapter 1, “I Will Make You Rich in Every Way,” was preached on that day (8/4). Giving on 8/11/02 was $38,747. Chapter 2, “I Want You to TITHE So I Can Reward You,” was preached on this day (8/11). TITHING-induced giving on the following Sunday, 8/18/02 was $67,946, an increase of $29,199 (75%) over the previous week. How many of the members did really carry the load? What will be the figures after chapter 3 and chapter 4 have been preached? How long will this “abounding” love go on? If the average weekly church contribution, say at $38,000, represents only 2.5% of the income, how close is the goal of 10% ($152,000) from being achieved? The Bible has made a clear distinction between that of tithing and the purposes it served and that of liberal giving. Let me just re-post the correspondence between Anonymous and myself that I am taking from the “mammon” thread: ================================================== RE: NOT ENTIRELY (BY ANONYMOUS) August 24, 2002, 10:35P.M. ================================================== ================================================== MS. ANNIE MOUSE’S “BUSINESS” OBJECTIVES: ================================================== [[[If you don't believe we should tithe, it's really none of your business how we who do spend the money. By the way, if the church paid critics, you people would be millioaires with huge signing bonuses! If you are so interested in volunteering, get off the internet and volunteer to do something besides complain about those who are doing something.]]] ================================================== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ REAL TITHING BUSINESS: 10 PERCENT, REDEEM , ADD 5TH ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Annie, I’m not going to do much explaining here, since you won’t listen anyway. Except, maybe, that the book of Leviticus, for one, explains a lot about the different laws for the Israelites: law of burnt offerings, law of peace offerings, law of sin offerings, law of trespass offerings, the priests’ offerings, laws of purification, sanitary laws for leprosy, laws of the sabbath, laws concerning the holy days, the year of jubilee, even THE TITHES. As Dr. Bruce White continues to emphasize in his series of lessons on tithing (which is NOT liberal giving and for what purpose as described in the New Testament), the tenth belongs to the Lord. Is it cash? Is it just cash? Is it more than just cash? What about the land, the herd, the flock, “whatsoever passeth under the rod,” your home, your car(s), your inheritance, etc.? Leviticus 27:26-34. “Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the Lord’s firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: IT IS THE LORD’S. And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation. Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death. And ALL THE TITHE OF THE LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT of the tree, IS THE LORD’S: IT IS HOLY UNTO THE LORD. And if a man will at all REDEEM ought of his TITHES, he shall ADD thereto the FIFTH part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the TENTH shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. THESE ARE THE COMMANDMENTS, WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL IN MOUNT SINAI.” Numbers 18:21,24. “And, behold, I have given the CHILDREN OF LEVI all the TENTH IN ISRAEL for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation…. But the TITHES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, which they OFFER as an heave offering UNTO THE LORD, I have given to THE LEVITES TO INHERIT: therefore I have said unto them, Among the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL they shall have NO INHERITANCE.” Annie, there you have it. If you insist on tithing HOODistically, you might as well do it the right way. Just curious, since you may have lineage that I’m not aware of. Otherwise, you are as confused as the two doctors of the law of tithing: Dr. Kregg Hood and Dr. Bruce White. Maybe, I shouldn’t blame Dr. White for resorting to any commercialization of his “upgraded” version of New Testament giving because of the church’s financial woes. NO, the Bible cannot let that one go as an unchallenged doctrinal fallacy. Oh, yes, I almost forgot: Are you a descendant of the Levitical priesthood because you are so defensive about this tithing stuff? Or, are you a descendant of any of the other tribes of Israel? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Aug 26, 2002 2:03 PM ============================== Donnie Cruz Sermon on September 1, 2002: “LOVE DEFINED” September 2 2002, 4:58 AM Sermon on September 1, 2002: “LOVE DEFINED” The month of August was indeed filled with new activities and excitement. Just so we are accurately reporting the many activities going on at the Madison congregation, let us not forget the recent series of important lessons on TITHING. As points of reference, the following passages must be studied carefully: (1) The ITEMS which constituted tithing, considering tithing as only ONE of the laws or commandments for the Israelites, and the PEOPLE who were REQUIRED to tithe; and (2) The RECIPIENTS and the NON-RECIPIENTS of the tithes. Passage One in Leviticus 27:26-34: “Only the FIRSTLINGS of the BEASTS … whether it be OX, or SHEEP: it is the Lord’s … and of the FIELD of his possession … ALL the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the LAND, or of the FRUIT of the TREE, is the Lord’s: it is HOLY unto the Lord … And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of WHATSOEVER passeth under the rod, the TENTH shall be holy unto the Lord … THESE ARE THE COMMANDMENTS, WHICH THE LORD COMMANDED MOSES FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL IN MOUNT SINAI.” (Note the other laws and commandments found in the book of Leviticus: law of burnt offerings, law of peace offerings, law of sin offerings, law of trespass offerings, the priests’ offerings, laws of purification, sanitary laws for leprosy, laws of the sabbath, laws concerning the holy days, the year of jubilee.) Passage Two in Numbers 18:21,24: “And, behold, I have given the CHILDREN OF LEVI all the TENTH IN ISRAEL for an INHERITANCE, for their SERVICE which they serve, even the service of the TABERNACLE of the congregation…. But the TITHES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, which they OFFER as an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given TO THE LEVITES TO INHERIT: therefore I have said unto them, Among the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL they shall have NO INHERITANCE.” The impact of this perverse transition FROM tithing items required of the Israelites for the service of the Levitical priesthood TO Christian giving was apparent when the prayer prior to the contribution stated a confession by C.B. that while he had not followed this “commandment” before, he is now obeying it and is now committed to doing it - encouraging families to do the same. Please, reader, do not get too excited over the statements above. Just carefully study the commonly used passage regarding the collection for the saints in I Corinthians 16. Keep in mind the churches in Corinth, Galatia, Jerusalem, and their needs and the liberality spoken of in this chapter. Let us see how the law of tithing has been practiced at Madison thus far (note that the average church contribution is only 2.5% of income; in Madison’s case, $38,000 weekly would fairly represent that 2.5% while $152,000 weekly the 10%): (1) $43,560 is the weekly budget. It was explained in July that a series of 4 lessons on tithing would be covered in August. (2) $37,641 was the amount contributed on August 4; Word One: “I Will Make You Rich in Every Way” was the lesson today. (3) $38,747 was the amount contributed on August 11; Word Two: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You” was the lesson today. (4) $67,946 was the amount contributed on August 18, the Sunday A-F-T-E-R the central lesson of “I WANT YOU TO T-I-T-H-E” was preached; Word Three: “I Trust You to Manage Material Resources” was the lesson today. (5) $52,733 was the amount contributed on August 25; Word Four: “I Will Help You Give More Than You Can Imagine” was the lesson today. (6) The amount contributed on September 1 will be posted on the board next Sunday; “Love Defined” was the lesson today. I’m just wondering about the results of the survey of 3 favorite songs. The “contemporary” worship program began with the “CALL TO WORSHIP: Philippians 4:4” by no other than THE WORSHIP LEADER of the Madison believers. These were the songs: (1) Jesus Is a Friend (on screen or sheet music) (2) Leaning on the Everlasting Arms (#394) (3) *Great is the Lord Almighty (Red Notebook) (4) *We Will Worship the Lamb of Glory (5) I stand in Awe (Praise and Worship #8) (6) Majesty (P&W #5) (7) O Sacred Head (#484) (8) Jesus Loves the Little Children [going to Canaan’s Land before sermon] (#809) (9) Victory in Jesus (#717) (10) My Eyes Are Dry (P&W #37) (11) Thank You Lord (P&W #21) (12) Trials Dark on Every Hand (#702) Sermon on “Love Defined” stated the following: (1) Love Is Action (2) Love Is Unrewarded Concern (3) Love Is Patient (4) Love Is Serving the Unlovely (5) Love Is Following the Lord Just for the record, here is a summary of a portion of an article in the Madison Marcher. Are the following names of men and women leaders familiar to you? ================================================== LIVING STONES LEADERS TRAIN FOR PILLARS MINISTRY, August 28, 2002 ================================================== [[[“The church is not made of sticks and stones, but living stones. This is what participants of the first training session for the Living Stones Leaders and Co-Leaders heard on Saturday, August 24.” FRANK SCOTT: “The day began with a devotional led by Frank Scott. Frank then encouraged everyone to become involved in the PILLARS ministry by getting others enthused about being members of a small group … Frank emphasized that Bible study curriculum will be supplied to each group … The leaders and co-leaders will attend on-going training sessions that will meet before the celebration service….” ROBIN GUIDICY: “Next, Robin Guidicy gathered everyone together in a circle to demonstrate “Gathering Time” in groups. This is the time for icebreakers. He led the group in ‘I Love the Lord Messiah’ … There were many who have been here for over 50 years, and some who have been at Madison for a few months….” LEANNE SHELBY: “Leanne Shelby explained the most effective way to lead a group in Bible study. She presented tools for discipleship saying that Jesus is the master teacher, and we should follow His example by pointing everyone to the Father. It is very important for the Living Stones groups to participate in a time of Bible study at each gathering. It is up to the leader to facilitate this study and to keep everything on track.” TOM HADDON: “After a sandwich lunch, Tom Haddon had everyone gather in groups of four. His task was to explain the next part of the gathering, Care Time. With a large congregation, it is very important for everyone to feel attached … to share needs with each other … He suggested that at every meeting that an empty chair in the room represent a ‘missing’ person.” JOHN CANTRELL: “John Cantrell finished the seminar explaining that the Living Stones groups will be a wonderful place to reach out to others, reach in to each other and reach up to God….” ================================================== Donnie Cruz This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 2, 2002 6:39 PM This message has been edited on Sep 2, 2002 11:23 AM ============================== ConcernedMembers ConcernedMembersMadison PRAYER CIRCLES September 2 2002, 6:48 PM "The God of the Bible locked in mortal combat for the souls of men with the goddess of revived paganism---...Few in the church and the popular culture realize the enormity of the revolution going on around us"(1). Is a prayer circle Biblical? No; we've shown that in Part Two. Do we have any clues concerning the true source of these prayer circles? I believe I've shown the origins in the first three parts of this series. Should a Christian participate in them? I don't think that's advisable. There are centuries of evidence that a prayer circle is unscriptural and a pagan practice. They are not merely an innovation of the modern church, and they are absolutely not described in God's word. They are occult tools, and if used, will sooner or later bring about demonic manifestations. SUFFICE IT TO SAY THAT PRAYER CIRCLES ARE AN OCCULT TOOL ESTABLISHED BY THEIR HISTORY TO BE UNBIBLICAL. This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 2, 2002 9:22 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 2, 2002 9:20 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 2, 2002 9:18 PM ============================== Joe McKnight Very Very Good September 7 2002, 11:16 AM Thank you for pointing out that Witches pray in circles. To God be the Glory Joe McKnight ============================== Anonymous Re: Very Very Good September 11 2002, 5:03 PM Children play "Duck, Duck, Goose" in circles. ============================== Phil Wilson Look to the Hills September 3 2002, 10:38 PM Donnie, I've found your responses to the Madison services to be interesting reading. Have you considered attending the Zoe Group's Look to the Hills conference in October and reporting on that? Thanks. ============================== Kenneth Sublett Look To the Hills September 4 2002, 6:23 PM Good idea, Donnie. I had hoped that someone would report on the NEW GLASSES through which Woodmont etal is getting a NEW VISION FOR THE CHURCH. In preparation for your EXPERIENCING worship in your nerve ending, I have scooped up a bit of data. Remember first that these people are postmodern which means that they can, re Shelly, "take liberties" with the Bible message. The Look to the Hills may be taking liberties, just plain dumb or perhaps consistent with the WINESKINS and ZOE concept they are being guided by a higher force. Here is the PROOF TEXT so profound that many feel that it is worth SOWING MASSIVE DISCORD: ---I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. Psa 121:1KJV Now, if you replace the period with a question mark then verse 2 and other versions will take the fog off the hills. ---I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help? Psa 121:1KJV ---My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. Psa 121:2 This FOUNDATION STONE of theatrical worship to replace the Word really states: "My help come from the hills?" But, the BIBLE says, "NO. IT COMES from the Creator of the MOUNTAINS." Look at the Living Bible: ---Shall I look to the mountain gods for help? Psa 121:1LIV -----No! My help is from Jehovah who made the mountains! And the heavens too! Psa 121:2 God actually caused mortal harm to those who made such a presumptions repudiation of the CREATOR: --And there came a man of God, and spake unto the king of Israel, and said, Thus saith the Lord, ----Because the Syrians have said, The Lord is God of the hills, but he is not God of the valleys, ----therefore will I deliver all this great multitude into thine hand, and ye shall know that I am the Lord. 1 Kings 20:28 The ZOE concept and LOOK TO THE HILLS actually fulfills the BEGINNING TIME and END TIME system of commercial worship defined in Revelation 18. Here are a few more revealing notes about ZOE as the "beast" and "female instructing principle." http://www.piney.com/ZoeLookHills.html The price for following deliberate false teaching is far too high to pay because you will have to forgive your own sins if you presume to be THE MEDIATOR and, re Shelly, "lead the worshipers into the presence of God." The wrath of the "wineskins" in Ephesians 4 really means to "make buffoons" out of people who refuse to SPEAK or TEACH that which is written in song and sermon with the singing (secular) and melody (grinding into bits) left in the heart. Ken Sublett This message has been edited on Sep 4, 2002 7:59 PM This message has been edited on Sep 4, 2002 7:57 PM ============================== ConcernedMembers Forum Owner ZOE, WINESKINS September 7 2002, 4:48 PM "Therefore, since SHE is prophesied as the end-time prostitute MOTHER of false religion and commerce (we sell lots of magazines and CDs, even in the church foyer), there is only one commercial institution which proudly takes the name of ZOE and substitutes WISDOM or SOPHIA seen in seductive, theatrical performance for the WORDS of God. This group produces the Wineskin magazine and is closely associated with Rubel Shelly of Woodmont Hills Family of God who is the end-time promoter of the NEW WINESKIN concept which, at the time of Christ, honored Dionysus or Bacchus as the father of WINE and charismatic, musical, theatrical performance worship" . Go To Zoe Go To Wineskins This message has been edited on Sep 7, 2002 5:00 PM ============================== Donnie Cruz Re: Look to the Hills (by Phil Wilson) September 3 2002, 10:38 PM September 7 2002, 6:47 AM Re: Look to the Hills (by Phil Wilson) September 3 2002, 10:38 PM Phil, Are you assuming that I know much about what you're talking about? To simplify matters, send a request to the web mail station to grant you permission to print copies of articles that are of interest to you for reporting. Maybe, the moderator(s) will edit this post to indicate approval. There are over 800 posted messages on this site, many of which are related to Madison?s situation. While the pro-contemporaneous worshipers would like to make anyone think that worship is the dominant issue, and many times the only issue in defense of THE WORSHIP LEADER, the "PRAISE TEAM" with its musical performance, and all the EXTRANEOUS activities to go along, there are really many other serious doctrinal issues being discussed. Many of these issues are covered under the following threads: What's Your Opinion Of Changing the Worship Format at Madison to one thats more entertaining? EMAIL RESPONSE! ConcernedMembers WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK AT MADISON.........The Timeline............ (Group 1)(NOT WORKING) So What's Wrong with a Praise Team?? WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK ......The Timeline (Group 2) Donnie Cruz This message has been edited on Sep 7, 2002 11:36 AM This message has been edited on Sep 7, 2002 11:33 AM ============================== Joe McKnight You need to study up on High Places first September 7 2002, 11:18 AM Do a word search in your concordance of High Places. And if your a Child of God, you won't go. To God be the Glory ============================== Donnie Cruz Changing the “CONTRIBUTION” Board to “TITHING” Board. September 9 2002, 3:22 AM Changing the “CONTRIBUTION” Board to “TITHING” Board. ================================================== The Madison Marcher (September 4, 2002) has an article by Max Lucado (America Looks Up). The article is titled, “NEVER FORGET: Discovering Hope in the Aftermath of Tragedy.” (Note: Let us familiarize ourselves with prominent names in the “brotherhood” such as Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly, Don Finto - some of the leaders who are eagerly restructuring and “charismatizing” the church of Christ.) The tragedy here is in reference to what is now known as the “911” tragedy, as emphasized and remembered in the worship services this Sunday, September 8, 2002. The program for the 10:30 contemporary service was almost similar to that of the 8:00 assembly: --- “Greatest Commands” (“Songs of Praise and Worship,” #45) Keith Lancaster --- “Awesome God” (Words on BIG Screen) --- *”Shout to the Lord” (Music in Red Notebook) --- Welcome (by Frank Scott) --- Congregational Reading: Proverbs 14:34-35 (by Frank Scott) --- “America the Beautiful” (#801, “Praise for the Lord” Hymnal) --- “America” (#803) --- Prayer (by Tory Treadway) --- “God of Our Fathers” (#173) --- Communion (by Jeff Sweet) --- “I’ve Got the Joy, Joy, Joy” (Children [of age group] to Canaan’s Land before sermon --- Love Feast (2nd Communion/Fellowship - NOT the same as 1st “Welcome”) --- “Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory”(#802) --- Message (by C. Bruce White) --- “Jesus Is Lord” (#874) --- Contribution (by Randy Butler) --- Family Matters (by Tory Treadway) --- Tribute to Police and Firefighters (by C. Bruce White) --- Update of College New York Trip (by John Cantrell) --- Dayspring Video --- “God Bless America” (by Keith Lancaster) ================================================== ================================================== The “Preacher Potpourri” by Dr. C. Bruce White (Marcher, 9/4/02) states, “Our PILLARS program has great promise. If you are not signed up, then contact Frank Scott or John Cantrell to get into a group. Bixler Chapel will have worship each Sunday night. A pie supper has been planned for the “Bixler group” tonight after service.” The Madison Marcher has this text box: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LIVING STONES PILLARS ----- Build Fellowship ----- Study Scripture ----- Reach Out to New People ----- Does this sound like something you might want to be a part of? ----- If so - sign up in the Mall. ----- Just look for the PILLARS! CELEBRATION PILLARS Sunday evening, September 22, will be the kick off of our new Celebration service. Emphasis will be placed on contemporary worship with singing led by Keith Lancaster and our praise teams. Tom Haddon will be our speaker. Worship will begin at 6 p.m. and be held in the Fellowship Hall. Our Bixler Worship will also meet with Dr. C. Bruce White speaking. At 7 p.m. both groups will meet together in the Mall for a finger food dinner and fellowship. Please bring your favorite dish. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ================================================== SPEAKING OF THE SERMONS ON TITHING IN AUGUST, 2002: ================================================== I am wondering if changing the marker board from “CONTRIBUTION” to “TITHING” should help Dr. White’s plea for the restoration of the LAW OF TITHING the Israelites as it was intended for the service of the Levitical priesthood. Is he not yet ready to do this? After all, he preached in August a series of lessons taken from Dr. Hood’s tithing manual. Dr. White needs to do one of two things: either (1) preach the same sermons on “tithing” every so often in order to reinforce the importance of supporting the priests with the goods - land, animals, not cash; or (2) retract the Seventh Day Adventist and Dr. Kregg Hood’s perverted view of tithing New Testament Christians. On one hand, tithing was a law given to the Israelites, and it was enforced. On the other hand, Christian giving is based on liberality or as one has been prospered, not grudgingly or of necessity (because God loves a cheerful giver); and it was intended for the destitute and needy. Remember the churches in Galatia and Corinth sending their “liberality” to the church in Jerusalem (I Corinthians 16:1-3). . What’s next from Dr. White in this regard? Is he going to abandon the teaching of this perverse doctrine of tithing, thus leaving Christians at Madison into believing that Christian liberality in giving is called tithing? Or is he going to continue perverting the truth by lying about tithing (10 percent of) the Christian’s income as a carry-over command from the Old Testament? If tithing is applicable to Christians, should it not be enforced now as it was commanded and enforced upon the Israelites then? And in order to reach the goal of the 10% minimum, should he resort to having the members sign a pledge to tithe? Perhaps, we need to verify Dr. White’s lineage: is he a descendant of Levi or what? (I still have not gotten over the shock that Dr. White had the “nerve” to pervert the truth about tithing!) We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison: (1) $43,560 is the weekly contribution budget (sermons on tithing in August) (2) $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002. (3) $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002. (4) $67,946 was TITHED on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11) (5) $52,733 was TITHED on August 25, 2002. (6) $46,316 was [still] TITHED on September 1, 2002. (7) Tithing on September 8, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday. Note: Accordingly, the average contribution is 2.5% of income. In Madison’s situation, 10% should amount to a $152,000 weekly contribution based on a $38,000 (2.5%) collection. The report of figures above is not intended to discourage members from contributing more. In fact, members should be encouraged to give more as they have been prospered. Rather, it is intended to point out that the doctrine of tithing Christians is NOT truth; it is a perversion of the truth. On the other hand, Christians are to give as they have been prospered and blessed, so “let every one of you LAY BY HIM IN STORE.” God loves a CHEERFUL GIVER! ================================================== Donnie Cruz ============================== Kenneth Sublett Changing to Tithing September 9 2002, 3:05 PM Oh, come on Donnie: If the preacher is going to claim the tithe added because of transgression to support the priest as mediators because of transgression and if this MARK or transgression was LOOKING TO THE HILL (Sinai) but worshipping the Egyptian triad then YOU should not try to stop him. But here is what--on the penalty of hell--everyone has been locked into. The producers of FOOD ONLY on free lands ONLY in CANAAN only on confiscated lands MUST now give 10% of their mint and anise. BUT, if the terminal sin goes on to demand CASH from wage earners not supplied with a FREE BUSINESS then here is what YOU must allow them to do: For those performing civil and mediating duties you must give to the LEVI TRIBE 10% only on years 3 and 6 out of the seven year cycle. That will be 2.8% and they must be the ONLY people serving (meaning hard bondage) the preacher as MEDIATOR, teaching the kids, locking up criminals, etc now provided by the TAXES. Levites then give 10% of the 10% 2 out of 7 years to the TOTAL PREACHING STAFF under the High Priest. Now, if you give 43,000.00 that will be 1,216 dollars per year to the PRIESTS ONLY for FOOD ONLY consumed while on restricted duty at the TEMPLE ONLY. But, they get paid only on the 3rd and 6th years. Oh yes, they could eat from the sacrifice of the type of Jesus they were killing and burning to music and they got free will offerings. But, they couldn't make it. That is what God thought. So if the thousands of priests needed a new Clay Tablet of Cube Roots from Babylon Paul had a remedy: "If they will not work neither shall they compute." That 2.8% (averaged over 7 years) also helped the families of the priests because they were of Levi. If the priest gets more than 1,200.00 a year then he has TRAPPED himself into being a robber of widows. But this would be valid IF the church was structured with FUNCTIONS which can only be performed by people of a certain FAMILY or with a professional skill so precise that PRESIDING over PREACHING and telling a lie would get him into a heap of trouble. You need to demand an accounting and make sure that the preacher gets only 23 dollars a week. The church HAS NO superiority- to- laity jobs or authority for expenditure if you want to be leagal about it and, consistent with church history, took up a collection ONLY for the destitute taken from those WHO had prospered. Therefore, that jerks the 23 dollars a week out of the MEDIATOR OF THE WORD's hand. Ken Sublett ============================== Donnie Cruz TITHING, NEW ELDERS, PRAISE TEAM, DRAMA, LIVING STONES, EASTER, HOLY SPIRIT September 16 2002, 1:55 AM TITHING, NEW ELDERS, PRAISE TEAM, DRAMA, LIVING STONES, EASTER, HOLY SPIRIT In Dr. Bruce White’s sermon entitled, “Fools in God’s Court,” he mentioned the rich fool, the wise fool, the carnal church members, etc., with references from Psalms 14:1, Galatians 3:1-3; Jeremiah 17:11; Matt. 7:26. I wish he had quoted: “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.” (I Cor. 3:19-20; 1:25). If church leaders, i.e., the elders, had been in constant counsel with God, followed His directions, watched over the flock with real spiritual oversight by not allowing “grievous wolves” to interfere, intrude, divide and take over, the church at Madison would not have experienced such an “upheaval.” Dr. White brought up (should I say “casually mentioned”) tithing as a reminder of the blessings it could bring with the realization of what belongs to the Lord and trust for the increase. We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood: (1) $43,560 is the weekly contribution budget (sermons on tithing in August) (2) $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002. (3) $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002. (4) $67,946 was TITHED on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11) (5) $52,733 was TITHED on August 25, 2002. (6) $46,316 was TITHED on September 1, 2002. (7) $43,657 was [still] TITHED on September 8, 2002. (8) Tithing on September 15, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday. The selection of additional elders is on the horizon. Part of the prayer before the message mentioned something about “… as the elders are [in the process of] selecting new elders…” which really caught my attention. (PEER SELECTION of elders by elders is ringing in my ears!) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The following announcement comes from the Madison Marcher of September 11, 2002 (and is repeated in the worship program for the contemporary service of September 15). Please NOTE certain key words in this announcement. Do you know which key words they are? ================================================== MADISON FAMILY CELEBRATION SERVICE -------------------------------------------------- ---Sunday evening, September 22 - 6 p.m. ------------Fellowship Hall ------Tom Haddon - “Who’s in the Boat” ---------Keith Lancaster & Praise Team ---Bring friends and neighbors for ---Great Singing - Responsive Readings - Drama/Vignettes and more ---Fellowship with the Bixler Pillar in the Mall at 7 p.m. ---Please bring finger foods ---Playground open after services for children up to 10 years old ------if accompanied by a parent -------------------------------------------------- Living Stones Leaders & Assistant Leaders need to meet at 5 p.m. You will act as host and hostesses. ================================================== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ “LADS TO LEADERS/LEADERETTES” (Please look for KEY words.) ================================================== [We will be having our annual Kick-Off for the 2003 Lads to Leaders/Leaderettes (“Lads”) program on Sunday September 22nd… The meeting will take place during the Bible School time at 9:30 a.m. in Bible Village… For those of you who may not know what this program is about, it is a training program for children that provides them an opportunity to grow in their leadership abilities in the church. The children get a chance to develop and showcase their talents in a number of events. The classes we conduct at the church building prepare them for the convention Easter weekend at the Opryland Hotel…] ================================================== ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ New “FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT” Biblical Study [Is it “fruits” or “fruit of the Spirit? … by D.C.] ================================================== “The Bixler Chapel Class begins in a new study entitled; ‘By Their Fruits You Shall Know Them.’ This Bible based series will be exploring the Fruit of the Spirit and thus, developing an intimate relationship with the Spirit of God. The goal of the study is to aid each individual in living a life which exalts God and grows of the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). As we grow in the Spirit our life becomes more pleasing to God, ourselves and to others around us. It becomes evident the [that, d.c.] we are led by His Spirit and in His Grace. “The class meets at 9:30 a.m. Sunday Mornings. Series begins September 29. Carl Wade is the teacher.” ================================================== Donnie Cruz This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 16, 2002 11:25 AM ============================== SR Conservative Churches Grow Faster September 20 2002, 8:57 AM A friend of mine in Arkansas sent me the following NY Times article on churches in America. Interestingly, the research shows that the fastest growing churches in America during the 1990's were the more conservative churches, inlcuding the churches of Christ and Christian church. The more liberal churches were found to be losing members and experiencing negative growth. Check out the article at: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/18/national/18RELI.html?ex=1033359401&ei=1&en=36c457029cdd6824 This message has been edited on Sep 20, 2002 9:57 AM ============================== Donnie Cruz TITHING Christians for Services of Levitical Priests, Song Survey Results September 23 2002, 3:01 AM TITHING Christians for Services of Levitical Priests, Song Survey Results We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Two weeks ago, I posed the following questions: “What’s next from Dr. White in this regard? Is he going to abandon the teaching of this perverse doctrine of tithing, thus leaving Christians at Madison into believing that Christian liberality in giving is called tithing [the Israelites]? Or is he going to continue perverting the truth by lying about tithing (10 percent of) the Christian’s income as a CARRY-OVER (or perpetual) command from the Old Testament? If tithing is applicable to Christians, should it not be enforced now [I believe this has just been settled] as it WAS COMMANDED and enforced upon the Israelites then? And in order to reach the goal of the 10% minimum, should he resort to having the members sign a pledge to tithe? Perhaps, we need to verify Dr. White’s lineage: is he a descendant of Levi or what? (I still have not gotten over the shock that Dr. White had the “nerve” to pervert the truth about tithing!).” Well, it appears that the PLEDGE to TITHE has arrived! Did the tithing-commanded Israelites ever PLEDGE? And who are NOW playing the role of being the Levitical priests [huh] among the half-bred (partly Israelite) Christians who TITHE? ============================================== Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001) Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001) Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001) ============================================== TOTAL BUDGET-----43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001) --------------- (Sermons on TITHING in August 2002) ------------- (1) $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002. (2) $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002. (3) $67,946 was TITHED on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11) (4) $52,733 was TITHED on August 25, 2002. (5) $46,316 was TITHED on September 1, 2002. (6) $43,657 was TITHED on September 8, 2002. (7) $48,710 was TITHED on September 15, 2002 (8) Tithing on September 22, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday. (9) The amounts above were not TITHES as PLEDGED (not yet) ================================================== SONG SURVEY RESULTS (Madison Marcher, Sept. 18, 2002) ================================================== [[Many thanks to the 500-plus members who shared their favorite worship songs in the recent church-wide survey. Although more than 300 different songs were mentioned on the surveys, several emerged as true favorites by a large number of members. Perhaps even more surprising, five of the top 10 favorites from early service and late service were the same songs. Although the survey was intended to gather information and not be a scientific sampling of the members, there were some interesting results. At early service, the top ten favorites were: How Great Thou Art, Amazing Grace, Shout to the Lord, I’ll Fly Away, The Old Rugged Cross, Greatest Commands, Restore My Soul, Ten Thousand Angels, Come Share the Lord and I Stand in Awe. Of all the songs mentioned on the surveys taken at early service, 74% were traditional and 26% were contemporary. At late service, the top ten favorites were: Shout to the Lord, Greatest Commands, Awesome God, Open the Eyes of My Heart, How Great Thou Art, Amazing Grace, When I Survey the Wondrous Cross, It Is Well With My Soul, I Stand in Awe, and Let Us Worship. Of all the songs mentioned on the surveys taken at late service, 66% were contemporary and 34% were traditional. Most often mentioned as first choices (both services combined) were: How Great Thou Art, Shout to the Lord, Greatest Commands, Awesome God and Amazing Grace.]] ================================================== This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 23, 2002 9:54 AM ============================== Donnie Cruz TITHING Christians for Services of the Levitical Priests - Continued (Sept. 29, 2002) September 30 2002, 2:51 AM TITHING Christians for Services of the Levitical Priests - Continued (Sept. 29, 2002) We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER or PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament? I believe that the leadership at Madison now has a dilemma as to what IT should be officially called. Somehow the word “tithing” carries MORE weight in concept of its being a requisite or necessity THAN the word “contribution” as not being taken as seriously. Just prior to the actual “contribution,” the congregation was reminded of the lessons on “giving” -- the word “tithing” was not mentioned. Since Dr. White insisted in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”: ============================================== Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001) Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001) Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001) ============================================== TOTAL BUDGET---- 43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001) --------------- (Sermons on TITHING in August 2002) ------------- (1) $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002. (2) $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002. (3) $67,946 was TITHED on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11) (4) $52,733 was TITHED on August 25, 2002. (5) $46,316 was TITHED on September 1, 2002. (6) $43,657 was TITHED on September 8, 2002. (7) $48,710 was TITHED on September 15, 2002. (8) $41,205 was TITHED on September 22, 2002. (9) Tithing on September 29, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday. (10) The amounts above were not TITHED as PLEDGED (not yet) ================================================== NEW ELDERS (Madison Marcher, September 25, 2002) ================================================== Unless I overlooked it, I found no article in the Marcher that was specially written concerning the newly appointed elders. This was rather odd and surprising in that as important as the office of an elder is and the leadership role is, there were [more important] other articles written and matters about social activities referenced: --- Let’s Be Candid About the Lottery (by Dr. C. Bruce White) --- Let Them Know You Care … Our College Students --- Ira & Avon North Christian Care Villa --- Lads to Leaders/Leaderettes --- Congregation-Wide Email Group --- Singles Ministry Calendar --- New Schedule for MYG (by Paul Bolling) --- Etc. Here’s all I found under “PREACHER POTPOURRI” (by Dr. C. Bruce White): “Please, join us in praise of the Lord for lifting up leaders among us. Pat Burch, Jim Morris, and Marty Rothschild will serve us well as shepherds. The future of this group of God’s people is looking brighter and brighter.” ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ One paragraph says, “The fellowship at Madison is open to all who will participate. The best way to become known and to know others is to attend the many fellowship opportunities. We are interested in having ‘one more’ at Madison….” I’m not sure if this means “open fellowship” with non-church members. Someone, please explain. ================================================== NEW “LIVING IN THE SPIRIT” BIBLICAL STUDY (Madison Marcher, Sept. 18, 2002) … (D.C.: “Direct Influence of the Holy Spirit?”) ================================================== The Bixler Chapel Class begins in a new study entitled: LIVING IN THE SPIRIT. This Bible based series will be exploring the Fruit of the Spirit and thus, developing an intimate relationship with the Spirit of God. The goal of the study is to aid each individual in living a life which exalts God and grows in the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). As we grow in the Spirit our life becomes more pleasing to God, ourselves and to others around us. It becomes evident the [that, d.c.] we are led by His Spirit and in His Grace. The class meets at 9:30 Sunday mornings and this series begins September 29. Carl Wade is the teacher. ================================================== Donnie Cruz This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Sep 30, 2002 9:10 AM ============================== Donnie Cruz Re: TITHING Christians for Services of the Levitical Priests - Continued (Sept. 30, 2002) October 1 2002, 3:48 PM Re: TITHING Christians for Services of the Levitical Priests - Continued (Sept. 30, 2002) ================================================== NEW DEACONS (Madison Marcher, August 21, 2002) ================================================== Review: A group picture of the new deacons and a list of the following names: Randy Butler; Kevin Dunnebacke; Ron Gatlin, Jr.; Robin Guidicy; Keith Hall; Ken Irwin; Jerry Moore; Greg Morgan; Steve Sloan; Carl Wade; Rob Wells; Robert Whitehead; Jim Wilson; Bill Wright. ================================================== ”GETTING TO KNOW YOU:” SUGGESTIONS FOR THE MADISON WEBSITE ================================================== It’s somewhat difficult to determine if the website of the church at Madison is still “under construction.” It is not lacking in information relating to everything else except for the leadership. The MINISTRY TEAM lists the following ministries: Pulpit, Family Life, Outreach, Worship, Children, Youth, Business and Prison; and most of the ministers have been identified. But the organization of the ministries is somewhat confusing. If preaching (pulpit) is part of the entire worship activity, as is singing, does the WORSHIP LEADER or WORSHIP MINISTER have a more encompassing role than the PULPIT MINISTER? What do we know about Dr. C. Bruce White, the PULPIT MINISTER? Hasn’t he been employed as a preacher for several months now? But yet beside his picture, it’s been “Information coming soon!” for quite sometime now. In this regard, there’s to be learned of the format from the website of the Broadway congregation in Lubbock, TX: http://www.broadway-church.org/Leadership/index.html. There are now 11 elders at Madison: John Broadway, Buck Dozier, Chris Gingles, Howard Henderson, Tommy Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Ken Rice, Ray Wilson, Pat Burch, Jim Morris, and Marty Rothschild. The visibility of the eldership should be very important to a congregation of believers. Yet, identification of these shepherds is limited and insufficient. What about each one’s employment, beginning year of service as an elder, e-mail address, office or home phone number, etc.? Whether or not the elders of the Broadway congregation have been peer-selected also, there’s to be learned from the website of this church in Lubbock, TX: http://www.broadway-church.org/Leadership/Elders/index.html. ================================================== FREE SPIRITUAL GIFTS ANALYSIS: (AFTER “LIVING IN THE SPIRIT” BIBLICAL STUDY?) ================================================== The article(s) in the Madison Marcher states: “It becomes evident … we are led by His Spirit and in His Grace.” Much is being said about “feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit” or about the direct influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of the Charismatic influence evident at Madison, is the congregation about to adopt the special feature of the Broadway website of