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TRANSCRIPTION OF BEN JONES’ REMARKS AND CLOSING PRAYER, UNEDITED 10/21/01
October 23 2001, 8:35 PM
TRANSCRIPTION OF BEN JONES’ REMARKS AND CLOSING PRAYER, UNEDITED 10/21/01
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8:00 AM WORSHIP
Ben Jones: Today I stand before you with a heavy heart. In all my 71
years I have never felt such grief. I am grieved by the obvious spirit
of hostility and division in our church family. Families are divided. Church
staff members are divided. The leadership of this body is divided. This
division was confirmed by the mediator who publicly stated so.
After much prayer and searching of God’s word, I realize that I need
to ask forgiveness of this church family. If I have offended anyone by
doing or saying anything, I ask your forgiveness. I have no animosity in
my heart toward anyone. I have tried to act as the duty of God’s word in
1 Timothy 5, 17 and 20. I believe that it is time for those of us who are
deacons and elders to repent of any part that we have had in contributing
to this division. Proverbs 6 tells us that God hates division. And I am
going to ask the elders and the deacons to come and repent with me this
morning, to join me in this repentance. Because, brothers and sisters,
we have a deep, deep problem here at the Madison Church. (pause)
In Matthew 12:26 our Lord tells us that a divided house cannot stand.
I call upon this church body this morning to repent of the antagonism that
has dimmed the light of Christ on this corner here and in this community.
For over 60 years this light has shown but I believe this light has almost
gone out. I believe the baptized members of this congregation need to repent.
I believe it is time for those of us who are in leadership to step down.
(Speaking to someone) Yes, come on up.
(some muffled dialogue from Dale that cannot be heard)
Dale Bishop (apparently to Ben): Do you want me to lead the prayer?
Ben: Yeah.
Dale Bishop: Will you all bow with me please? Our heavenly father, as
we approach your throne, we are remembering Lord that you are the Alpha,
the very beginning and the Omega, the end. Lord, we know that this is your
church and all these men that are standing on the stage and all those who
are sitting, this congregation, humbly comes before you, Lord, confessing
that we are sinners, that we fall short of what you would have us to be.
We ask you Lord to humble our hearts, get our hearts right, get our attitude
right, but most of all, Lord, we plead with you to help us to get the church
right in whatever capacity we are in, whatever we do, whatever we say,
that your light shines through us.
We know Lord that we have difference of opinions a lot of times with
our own families, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, even among
the staff, but this does not mean that we cannot have unity and have peace.
Help us Lord that whatever we do again that you are the focus of our lives.
Without you we have no hope of eternal life. Without you we don’t have
the hope of the next minute. And, Lord, as the statement says we want to
be united. We want to have peace. We want to be strengthened in your word.
Guide us. Direct us. Give us the wisdom to see what we can do. Defeat us
when we are wrong and hold us when we are right. Comfort us in your own
hand as no one else can do.
For we pray this in Jesus’ name,
Amen.
Ben Jones: Amen.
(slight pause)
Ben Jones: We are asking (clears throat) this church body if you will
stand and repent with us and if you will stand and show that you are committed
to seeking men who will lead this church. Will you do that now? (pause)
May God bless us. May once again our light shine in this community.
I pray it all in Jesus’ name.
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10:00 A.M. WORSHIP 10/21/01 (unedited)
Ben Jones: I am going to read the same thing that I read to the early
service because I think that it is important that we all stand in judgment
of the Lord.
(apparently reading) Today I stand before you with a heavy heart. In
all my 71 years I have never felt such grief. I am grieved by the obvious
spirit of hostility and division in our church family. Families are divided.
Church staff members are divided. And the leadership of this body is divided.
The division is/was confirmed by the mediator who publicly stated that
the division among the elders was clearly the main factor for the division
of the congregation. After much prayer and searching of God’s word, I realize
that I need to ask the forgiveness of this church family. If I have offended
anyone by anything I’ve said or done, I ask your forgiveness. I have no
ano, no animosity in my heart toward anyone. I have tried to act out of
duty to God’s word as stated in 1 Timothy 5, 17 and 20. I believe it is
time for those of us who are elders and deacons to repent for any part
that we have had in contributing to this division. Proverbs 6 tells us
God hates division. And I ask that those of you who would like to repent
with me this morning for this division, I would like for you to join me
right here on this stage. (no pause) In Matthew 12:26 our Lord tells us
that a divided house cannot stand. I also recall that this church body
needs to think of repentance also. Because there is so much antagonism
in this body today that we have di…. We have dimmed the light of Christ
that has shown in this community for over 60 years. Because of our inability
to heal the wounds of division, it is time for this body of elders and
deacons to step aside and yield to the church body who has
lost confidence in them. I call this church body to repentance. I would
like to for you to stand with us at this time if you feel that there is
a need to select leaders that will lead this church out of this division.
Will you stand? (pause)
Russ……
Russ Kersten: Let us pray. Our heavenly father, many of us have known,
admired, loved these men standing on this stage for decades. Some of them
have been among your most powerful workers for getting things done here.
And, Father, they feel the need to repent. They feel the horror of division
we all do. I want each of us here to do our best to meet with, to talk
with, to talk through, whatever problems there may be for indeed some of
the problems consist of simply not liking this contemporary worship. Father,
just, just help us not to approach anybody or anything with the wrong attitude
because so much of your Word is all about an attitude of love and forgiveness,
so be with us as we struggle along. Father, we know we are a room full
of sinners. There is nobody in this house today that is perfect and just
help us see the way to go. We ask in Jesus’ name, Amen.
Ben Jones: Amen.
This message has been edited by on Oct 23, 2001 8:52 PM
This message has been edited by on Oct 23, 2001 8:39 PM
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Johnnie Allen
What is happening at the 2nd Service? October 28 2001, 5:59 PM
I would like for someone to tell me exactly what is happening in the second
service that has everyone upset. Describe what is happening in the worship
service that is being done to make people leave Madison that has been worshiping
there for 30 or more years!!!
What is unscripturally being done that all should know about that worship
at Madison. The right hand should know what the left hand is doing if we
are to be a "family". Please give a scripture for each wrong that is being
done.
Thank you.
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A FRIEND
WHAT IS HAPPENING AT SECOND SERVICE October 31 2001, 8:34 AM
THE ONLY TRUE WAY, AND I REALLY MEAN THE REALLY ONLY
TRUE WAY TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING AT SECOND SERVICE IS
TO GO THERE, AT THAT APPOINTED TIME, IN PERSON, AND
DECIDE FOR YOURSELF IF YOU SHOULD BE OFFENDED, UPSET,
RAILING AGAINST IT (WHICH I AM NOT, OF COARSE, SAYING
THAT YOU ARE) OR IF YOU SHOULD JUST SIMPLY CHOOSE YOUR
PREFERRED SERVICE, AND LIVE AT PEACE IN LOVE WITH THOSE
WHO GO TO SECOND SERVICE.
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Bobby M.Johnson
Summary and comments on services 8:00am and 10:30am....Madison Church of
Christ December 18 2001, 9:59 PM
Bruce White delivered his best Sunday morning sermon to date 12/16/01. He
said it was his Sunday evening sermon which are his best sermons intentionally.
Since the Madison Youth was in charge Sunday night then he would deliver
the evening sermon that morning.
The 10:30 AM service still has the faster tempo "ROCK" beat songs that cause
folks to "move" in their seats. I even found my old rock n' roll blood from
many years past begin to cause my hands and feet to move to the rhythm. Hands
are still raising and rhythmic clapping to the rock beat is still there.
There was a loudness to the voices and separate harmony parts reminiscent
of early 60's style folk-rock music. It was difficult to think about God
or Christ. The music was arousing to many in the service. Some may have mistaken
that for the presence of the Holy Spirit. I believe I heard that from somewhere
near the pulpit area as the songs were being lead. But there were also older
less contemporary style songs sung without clapping that helped you center
your thoughts on God. I was able to think about God then.
The 10:30 AM service seemed more like a "gathering of friends" rather than
each being there only for the purpose of worshiping God. There was a lot
of fellowshippin' goin' on. People were really enjoying themselves. It was
entertaining. Of course that's by design. It is good to be happy at church.
No one likes to see a solemn face.
My question is, where are the hundreds and thousands that this is supposed
to attract? Attendance is at about 1700 regular members for worship services
on 12/9/01, 777 at 8:00 AM and 918 at 10:30 AM. That's a bit shy of the 5,000
regular members reported by the Tennesseean a few short weeks ago just before
Brother Bruce White came on board. For this to work the transition must be
complete. It's kinda like being half married. One must either do it or not
do it. This member thinks this is not over.
Both the 8:00 AM and 10:30 AM services were treated to equally presented
lessons of aproximately 35 minutes in length. Bruce's lesson was about "Evangelism
Now - seeking the lost". His lesson text was 2 Chronicles 14:8-15 NKJV. The
core verse was verse 11 where Asa prays or cries out to God for God to help
him defeat his enemies, an army of 1,000,000 which was in God's best interest.
Asa and Benjamin had armies totaling only 580,000. God answered Asa's prayer.
Bruce applied this to how we are to emerge from baptism as a soldier to fight
sin because God needs an army to bring the lost to Christ. Bruce's question
was, "What will it take?" We must see the world for what it needs. I believe
Brother Bruce White is on the right track and let's pray that he doesn't
follow anyone's lead except that of Jesus Christ.
This is what I see. Bobby M. Johnson, member of the Church of Christ at Madison
This message has been edited by on Dec 18, 2001 10:07 PM
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Donnie Cruz
The Sunday After February 10 2002, 10:43 PM
During the early service on 2/10/02, in Charles Link's absence as being one
of the elders on duty and one to lead the "Shepherd's Prayer" in closing,
was it Chris Gingles (?) instead who led the prayer for the Holy Spirit's
direct influence (rather than prayer for unity of the spirit in the bond
of peace)? And led the prayer for the leadership of the (... remaining) elders
to be such as being in accordance with God's will? (Unity of this body of
believers should have been the primary focus of this group of elders in the
first place. Isn't that plea a little bit late -- now that the remaining
elders are Saddleback supporters?)
In the second service, Keith Lancaster's leadership is notably more upbeat
than in the first. (He depends so much on the performance of his organized
praise team to get his mission accomplished.) There was some comment about
how well Bruce and Keith are doing their jobs. We'll see in the long run,
who between the two would prevail as the better leader and who would have
the higher level position or duty in the future. Remember, more new and complex
"harmony" songs but shorter sermons is the way it goes these days? If the
performers continue their acts on stage for the "listening" members to be
"excited" about and be entertained (or perhaps for God to be entertained),
especially with their handclapping, I would suggest that they enhance their
performance with whistling as well (whistling is non-instrumental and it
can also come from the heart, you know). Keith also seemed to be enjoying
today his musical interjections!!!
If it wasn't Chris Gingles, please correct my error.
This message has been edited by on Feb 11, 2002 9:46 AM
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Donnie Cruz
The Sunday After (2/10/02) -- P.S. February 12 2002, 10:57 PM
When J.D. Elliott and Bobby McElhiney resigned last year, the "Marcher" briefly
mentioned the news. (Of course, we had to draw our own conclusion as to the
reason why.) Unless I just completely missed it, the Marcher this time made
no mention of what should have been a headliner -- that four elders (that
MANY at one time!! and not long after the other two did earlier!) have just
resigned from being elders (and for scriptural reasons). Personally, I have
greater respect now than ever before for these humble, sincere men of God
who carried such a heavy burden through these several months. Since the identity
of the remaining elders being Saddleback supporters is no longer in question,
it is my prayer and hope that they seek the truth as revealed in the scriptures
by the Holy Spirit, who is truth, according to 1 John 5:6. They may have
to wait a long, long time for a "direct" influence of the Holy Spirit (who
dwells in us as our Comforter) because such a special operation was bestowed
only upon a special group of leaders (the apostles of Christ) who were able
to perform miracles and who were instrumental in the conversion of the earliest
Christians. Honestly, I do not question the sincerity of the current elders,
but I wonder about what kind of "spiritual influence" they now have that
would allow and continue to allow the "change" agents to disrupt and cause
division in the church. Is it really the Holy Spirit? Or, is it not?
Keith Lancaster, the "worship leader," is simply doing his job. Right! And
he can't be still! He should do the job of an orchestra director really well.
Fast songs seem to be faster than ever. The "upbeat" beat is evident and
just perfect. So upbeat you can see some of the handclapping young people
in the front rows just cheerleading and swaying to the music! Just a tamed
version of the rock concert experience.
I would urge the remaining elders to resign and allow the congregation to
select new elders who should have all the qualifications required of the
office according to the scriptures. Otherwise, I'm of the opinion that they
are "happy" that the elders that have just resigned did so as that would
give them full control of the congregation ... whatever is left of it. Too,
they probably are looking forward to the day when, as part of the "change"
scheme of things, they will eventually get rid of the office and replace
it with being deacons/deaconesses or servants or leaders ... anyway -- just
a few of the expected restructuring of the church.
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Donnie Cruz
Statement by the Elders on 2/17/02 -- Good Enough? February 25 2002, 10:38
PM
Statement made by the Elders
February 17, 2002
The Elders wish to express to you, our membership, the love that we have
for our Lord, His Church, and His family. We now want to share some of our
thoughts that will be our guiding principles as we work together with you
to do what the Lord wills for us.
1. We believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life,
was crucified for our sins, was resurrected, and that He will one day come
again.
2. We are committed to a cappella music, with no intention of going into
any unscriptural direction for this church.
3. We believe that baptism for the remission of sins is a condition for salvation.
4. We believe that there can be unity in diversity and we will continue to
employ two styles of worship services.
5. We believe that a dynamic pulpit is essential for meaningful worship and
we are pleased with the biblical teaching and preaching of our minister,
Dr. Bruce White.
6. We believe fervently in seeking the lost from our local neighborhoods,
our inner cities, and our prisons, as well as emphasizing worldwide missions.
7. We believe in a dedication to continuing activities and programs that
have been and should be the trademark of the Madison Church of Christ:
. Caring for children, caring for battered women, caring for senior citizens,
. Offering assistance to those in need of food, furniture, and clothing,
. Providing counseling services to families as well as individuals,
. Preparing our children for service through powerful and innovative Bible
School programming for all ages,
. Developing opportunities for our young people to be actively involved in
activities that will help them grow mentally, physically, and spiritually,
and,
. Offering encouragement to the singles of this congregation.
Madison people have always given freely of their time and money to make these
things happen for the Lord, and we ask each of you to do your part to make
this congregation thrive once again!
======================================================
What compelled the remaining elders of the Madison congregation to make the
statement on February 17. 2002? Was it because of the recent resignations
by the four elders (plus by the other two late in 2001) whose opposition
to the "decisions" or "actions" of the remaining elders was not acknowledged
or taken into consideration during the past several months? Was it because
of this website's vision to alarm the rest of the churches of Christ of the
"upheaval" caused by the community church movement? Was it to deter any more
members from seeking fellowship with other Christians of the same mind and
spirit somewhere else? Was it because of the forewarning letters that have
been received by the elders? And for other reasons as well? All of the above?
Although it's unnecessary for them to mention the obvious (belief in Jesus
Christ, baptism, seeking the lost, the trademark of the congregation) to
which we all agree, I'll give them credit for their stand on "acappella music."
(Let's assume for now that handclapping is somewhat "vocal" or that it doesn't
really resemble some form of instrumentation -- not as much as "whistling,"
or that it's not annoying and disruptive to many senior Christians. Let's
assume for now that our very talented "worship leader," Keith Lancaster,
is really NOT AWARE that handclapping is disruptive and that there are only
a few of those songs that "trigger" the handclapping performance and, therefore,
has no responsibility for NOT selecting those certain songs in order to avoid
further disruption. Let's assume for now that the sincere performance of
the "praise team" is not really a "Church of Christ choir," since the blend
of voices is so beautiful to listen to and very entertaining.)
You know what? I'm looking for their decision to revert to the scriptural
principles that have worked for the Madison congregation through the years.
You know what I find instead? The continuance of the two styles of worship
services! Further indication that they do not recognize the fact that the
majority of the members who at the moment are not deciding to attend somewhere
else and who prefer to attend the second rather than the first service because
of scheduling restraints is bound by the format of the "contemporary" service.
This leaves no question in the eyes both of the membership and of the watchful
public that division exists and the current elders have no plans for rectifying
the problem. Don't they realize that this divisive situation had been unquestionably
absent for years and years until they decided to succumb and be accommodating
to the community movement's scheme of things? Can they afford to lose any
more members?
What's this new deal about the "innovative Bible School programming for all
ages"? Is what I'm hearing about women teaching newly baptized young men
true? Is Tom Haddon's "Homebuilders" (term sounds good but is misleading)
class -- a Saddleback feature -- continuing? Is Bob Hudson's "Seekers" (term
sounds good but is misleading) class -- a community movement feature -- also
continuing?
The elders have not specified their position on certain charismatic identities.
Do they believe in the direct influence of the Holy Spirit that it had upon
the apostles versus what it has on Christians today (that we receive the
Holy Spirit itself after baptism and it dwells in us as a Comforter and operates
in us through the word of God according to 1 John 5:6 that says that the
Spirit is truth)? Do they believe in speaking in tongues as being applicable
to Christians today?
Brother Bruce's sermon was a good and dynamic one this past Sunday. He stressed
the importance of love for one another (good, but it somewhat reminded me
of the "love" factor that the community church movement strongly emphasizes
to disguise its scheme of things -- and we really need to be careful about
this!). He wonderfully stressed the importance of our relationship with God,
but minimized the importance of label making. The question is: how should
Christians feel if they were called other than? Did he mean that the office
of a deacon can now be labeled the office of a deaconess? I have the stange
feeling that "our" own Rubel Shelly has done some mentoring in this regard.
So, calling the "praise team" as the "Church of Christ choir" acceptable?
Does it mean that the "Woodmont Hills Family" is not really ashamed to identify
itself as a church that belongs to Christ? Please shed some light. I think
I am a little bit confused about the significance of proper identification.
When reference was made of the current elders as "good elders," (I suppose
because they have remained) did that mean that the ones that resigned weren't
good? Just not clear on this. When reference was made that the elders now
are united, doesn't that prove that when there were 15 or so of them that
they weren't united? And also prove that the remaining elders happen to be
of the same mind now because they do not have to contend with the humble
elders that have resigned?
Chris Gingles prayed for the Holy Spirit to intervene and prayed for the
elders to be "leaders with vision" (this should have been prayed for before
the upheaval). He also prayed for the finances of the church (now that many
of the church members that were alienated by the hostile takeover have severed
ties ... members who were giving of their time and money for a long time).
There are "too many things in church we take too seriously." accordingly.
Whoa! We'd better take things seriously or the church of Christ will just
be another denomination!!!
All my remarks may sound pessimistic. But it's the plain truth of what has
transpired through these several months. My hope and prayer is that by expressing
my personal views, and I'm sure that there are many more that share the same,
nothing will be more welcomed than a reversal of the elders' decisions on
a number of things. I believe that only then is there a possibility that
the alienated members of the once-united congregation would return and be
part of one big, happy family of God.
This message has been edited by on Feb 26, 2002 11:57 AM
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Kenneth Sublett
Elders Creed February 27 2002, 10:23 AM
That is a pretty "open" creed but its holes are pretty big. For instance,
"A cappella" is not teaching with the Biblical text with the singing and
melody in the heart.
A cappella is "after the Pope's castratos" to form a "legal" form of the
pipe organ (organum singing) where "machines" were always illegal in the
Pope's Sistine Chapel.
"The papacy also continued the practice of creating castratos (boys castrated
before puberty to keep their singing voices high-pitched) for their OWN ENTERTAINMENT...
it would seem that GENDER STRETCHING is an original part of this music, and
perhaps one reason for its continuing dramatic impact." The fact that the
boy-girls rise up to clap reveals more about them than they may want to reveal,
for now.
The ugly implications of "a cappella" are posted here:
http://www.piney.com/MuPraiseTeamAcap.html
UNITY IN DIVERSITY is a Shellyism and is an oxymoron. There was diversity
but NO unity in Corinth. Paul said "your assemblies do more harm than good"
(1 Co 11:17). Paul's "Core Gospel" was an insult to the CARNAL as Shellyism
does not grasp. History shows that the church in Corinth always self-destructed
over presumptive "ruling elders."
A DYNAMIC PULPIT like a "worship team" depends on theatrical performers "standing
in the holy place taking the place of Christ." Dynamic means charismatic
(powerful) and trusts theatrical performance rather than "giving attention
to the public reading of the Word." The Bible, all church history and the
RM leaders and minimal common sense and the cause-and-effect results repudiates
the pulpit preacher:
http://www.piney.com/RMPreacPay.html
And, how about money? Elders cannot presume to command leadership for budgeting
purposes when they do not have the power of appropriation. Alexander Campbell
insisted that:
"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is PROSCRIBED. No brother
is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations
which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged,
feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren."
http://www.piney.com/ShellyDeaconess.html
To that, add "churching" as synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. Purpose driven
"Programming" of the kiddies sounds like the music of Amos: they hunger and
thirst for the WORD and cannot find it.
Elder's roles are RESTRICTED to "teaching the Word AS IT HAS BEEN TAUGHT
and refuting false doctrine" and if it wants to "infiltrate and divert" CHURCH
to the SOCIAL GOSPEL rather than synagoging, it CANNOT EXERT TAXATION WITHOUT
REPRESENTATING. Since the elders have no role to play outside of education
and caring for ITS OWN MEMBERS A. Campbell would attribute the division in
the Mega-Temples to eleders "creating spiritual anxiety through religious
rituals" in repudiation of Jesus Christ Who died to remove both the burden
and the BURDEN LADERS-- the doctors of the law who "take away the key to
knowledge."
Personal and CIVIC PRIDE and the CREDIT CARD MENTALITY of robbing widows
of their houses and church houses for MY plans must and will tear down temples
as fast as they can be built. Heaven help those "holding the reigns" when
Jesus comes and asks: "What is that in THY hand?"
The "collection plate" is permissible for the prosperous to give to the poor
but IF is mandated then it is leagalism and will not work. Tithing fuels
a restoration of the cursed clergy system of Israel and the Jubilee concept
of "venue for Rock and Roll" is the MARK. Read the following evidence. It
is almost daily "casting out the tithing demon":
http://www.piney.com/Tithing3.html
Kenneth Sublett
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Anonymous
Ken Sublett and Elders Creed: March 13 2002, 12:23 AM
Dear Ken.
I still can't figure out just who you are. Where do you go to church at?
Is there really a congregation in the Nashville area that agrees with your
theology? I thought I had heard preachers who could ramble on and on about
a lot of things that in the end did't matter a hill of beans, but I have
to say you take the cake. I wonder what it would be like if we had about
three elders that agreed with you. If we did we would have a longer set of
rules and regulations than any one could keep up with. You would probably
have an easy job because in a short time you would run so many people away
that you would only have a handful left that agreed with you and you could
keep them in line. I wonder are you scared to get out of bed in the morning,
afraid you will not get your quoto of "false teachers" for the day. Was you
taught this "stuff" in some school or did you learn it on your own? If I
agreed with half what you write I would have to conclude there is not a church
any where of any kind that is worthy of my attendence and support.
Yes I worry sometimes that some will go completly overboard to the extreme
with some things, but I worry also that preachers like yourself will cause
some to be so disgusted that they will re-act to the extreme. I know some
who have already said they no longer want to be associated with churches
of Christ for that very reason. A brother told me one time, "I know the Church
of Christ is the true Church, if it wasn't we would have killed it a long
time ago." There may be a lot of truth in that. A tree is known by its fruit.
May God have mercy.
This message has been edited by on Mar 13, 2002 2:02 PM
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Kenneth Sublett
Elder's Creed March 13 2002, 5:09 PM
I am a retired Engineer/Manufacturer who left Seattle 22 years ago and watched
Jubilee and the Zoe Group train a theatrical performance style called worship
which chased off the older members who slaved to bring an Army chapel down
the Columbia, up the Pacific, up the straits, up the canal and set in place.
As with all of the "musical" sermons to prove their point they lied, used
the law and stole the "church house of widows" just so they could play instruments.
They also bought into the Nashville preacher-educator (?) view of PostModernism
or Post Biblical or even Post Christendom era. Your guys undoubetly believe
that the Bible has been sifted of all facts but seven statements about Jesus.
That is the CORE GOSPEL garbage which they will peddle to you at a price
too high in Nashville.
I live in Hohenwald, Tennessee and I serve almost full time as "shepherd"
of bleeding souls around the country being "infiltrated and diverted" to
facilitate "holy entertainment." They all tell the same story: "My shepherds
said don't ask me for food and don't bother me--you have no opinion." I have
watched my congregation make the great leap forward and onward from about
350 members to about 250.
Since most elders are self or peer selected and pushed on the congregation
by dominant leaders, I know from my total 71 year experience that most are
about as "apt to chase a coon as apt to teach the Bible as it has been taught
and refute those who contradict it."
God couldn't find a single elder to support Him when they fired Him and demanded
a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations.
Jesus couldn't find a single "elder" in Jerusalem who would defend Him. Paul
warned that out of the elders would come, has come, all false teaching.
Since I am not on the dole riding the backs of widows I don't need agreement:
in fact, much agreement would utterly shatter my Biblical view expressed
by Isaiah that God settles for "a tiny drop of juice out of one rotten grape
out of one bare cluster off one dead vine out of one vineyard He had turned
over to the beasts and briars because their religious festivals were devoted
to musical entertainment so that the members died of spiritual thirst. Amos
told the same story but you haven't heard that one straight either.
Church as "worship center" intends to take away the key to knowlege. "My
scheme" strips the church back to community school of the Bible and you would
be surprised how blessed the church of Christ was in the days when it served
that purpose. Did I tell you that I knew a man in Murfreesboro who survived
the hostile battle over hiring the first professional preacher in Lebanon?
Now, Anna Mouse, tell us who you are and what qualifies you as a student
of Bible 101aaa or even able to read the Biblical evidence I post?
Kenneth Sublett
***************************************
Grace
Love thy neighbor? March 14 2002, 1:28 AM
Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor. Your tone sounds
like that of someone filled with hate and puffed up with the sins of self-importance
and pride. You may put "Anna Mouse" (how clever) in their place, but what
do you gain?
ah, shall we expect another full page ranting...
***************************************
Anonymous
Untitled March 14 2002, 9:37 PM
This
Post Has Been Moved To The Viper's Den
Why? Most often it's because the poster was attacking someone by name, and
they were spineless enough not to leave their own name. It could be they
are a prolific attacker, that present no basis in fact, and their post is
meant to interupt, confuse, and deceive. Always, it's because
they forget they are a guest here. In
the end, approval of all post are at the sole discretion of the moderator.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 3:16 PM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 10:08 AM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 9:43 AM
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Forum Owner
Most of the Remaining Elders Are ... That Explains It! March 12 2002, 8:36
AM
While folks were leaving the second assembly this past Sunday (3/10/02),
the big screen displayed pictures of the current elders with the caption
that each has been an elder since (whenever). I made some notes for me and
for those who need to know more about our shepherds as follows:
(1) John Broadway ... since 1998
(2) Buck Dozier ... since 1996
(3) Chris Gingles ... since 1998
(4) Howard Henderson ... since 1999
(5) Tommy Hoppes ... since 1999
(6) Russ Kersten ... since 1992
(7) Charles Link ... since 1978
(8) Ken Rice ... since 1989
(9) Ray Wilson ... since 1992
I would "assume" that the elders who resigned earlier (J.D. Elliott, Bobby
McElhiney, William Bennett, Dale Bishop, Joe Corley, Norman Slate and others)
had been elders much longer than any of those listed above with the exception
of Charles Link.
Isn't it apparent that the remaining elders who have served in the last 2
or 3 years (quite "young" considering the long history of the Madison congregation)
are products of and adherents to this new wave of the "Saddleback pattern"
and/or the "community church movement"? In my opinion, they are certainly
not immuned from being questioned as regard their individual beliefs and
preferences on certain doctrinal matters in light of the scriptures, as well
as their insistence on not reversing their decision from the Saddleback pattern
(which so far has worked NEGATIVELY) to the New Testament pattern?
I believe it is irresponsible on their part as shepherds of the flock by
not providing us with workable solutions to the church division they have
caused or allowed to happen. Members are to "obey them that have the rule
over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they THAT
MUST GIVE ACCOUNT..." to God (Heb. 13:17).
====================================
NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR
One of the patterns of the Saddlebacker takeover, is to increase the number
of Elders. In our case remember back a few years ago when the announcement
was made that Madison would be increasing the number of Elders from 10 to
15?
All the new Elders were approved by other Elders. The congregation as a whole
had no input. One can't help but wonder if there was a small group of the
congregation that had a great deal of input.
The plea for increasing the number of Elders always starts with elements
of the change crowd. The plea is to have more Elders to administer the growing
Church.
The result is always a takeover initiated in secret, always the ploy of a
few.
This message has been edited by on Mar 12, 2002 8:39 AM
***************************************
Anonymous
Re: That explains it. March 13 2002, 1:22 PM
Donnie,
Since you are not a member at Madison, how can you use the term "our elders"?
And, since you are not a member of the Madison Church of Christ, just what
is the point of your writings?
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Re: That Explains It March 13 2002, 10:03 PM
To Anonymous or 68.53.149.90:
That you mentioned "since you are not a member" TWICE was for emphasis, correct?
I've done some quick research of my own, and I've found your anonymity on
this website twice coincidentally. So far. And I'm not going any further.
So, when I remarked that "I made some notes for me and for those who need
to know..." simply indicated to you that although I was present at the assembly,
I was there only to observe and to spy and that my presence was not sufficient
enough to prove my membership at Madison ... correct? If you examined the
church records and could not find my name, did you recall the hundreds of
names that are no longer on the roll as they've been alienated because of
the subtle activities and the behavior of the change agents?
By the way, I am very proud to say that I've been a member and part of God's
family for many, many years. I've been worshiping at Madison for several
years, including those years when Nick Boone was no more than a humble individual
who led our "congregational" singing effectively. Let me remind you that
singing should be congregational (that's the real "team" effort in praising
God). Compare that to the emphasis on the performance effort of the installed
"praise team" of selected individuals. Here's some simple math for everyone:
(congregational singing minus "praise team" performance of new songs equals
"hardly anybody sings").
Let me return you a favor. Can you identify yourself? There's no reason for
you to remain anonymous whether or not you are one of the change agents.
Whether or not I'm a member at Madison is irrelevant as far as the point
of my writings is concerned. It is my responsibility to reveal the truth
to the best of my knowledge.
***************************************
Anonymous
Re: The truth March 15 2002, 1:03 PM
This Post Has Been Moved To The Viper's Den
Why? Most often it's because the poster was attacking someone by name, and
they were spineless enough not to leave their own name. It could be they
are a prolific attacker, that present no basis in fact, and their post is
meant to interupt, confuse, and deceive. Always, it's because
they forget they are a guest here. In the end, approval of all
post are at the sole discretion of the moderator.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 3:17 PM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 9:49 AM
***************************************
Anonymous
Reply to Donnie Cruz, Re: That Explains it: March 15 2002, 7:11 PM
This Post Has Been Moved To The Viper's Den
Why? Most often it's because the poster was attacking someone by name, and
they were spineless enough not to leave their own name. It could be they
are a prolific attacker, that present no basis in fact, and their post is
meant to interupt, confuse, and deceive. Always, it's because they
forget they are a guest here. In the end, approval of all post
are at the sole discretion of the moderator.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 3:17 PM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 9:58 AM
***************************************
Needing Information
Needing Information March 16 2002, 12:55 PM
Could you please tell me how to get to this "Viper's Den" site which you
talk about? (And, please don't give me some smart aleck answer about everyone
that disagrees with you already being in the viper's den.) If the arguments
of Mr. Cruz and others who post here can't stand up to ANYTHING written about
them, then THEY have problems. Many of the people who read what's on this
site resent your taking it upon yourself to take away the free agency God
extends to all.
==========================================
Note from the moderator.
You must be misinformed. You do not have FREE agency here. Your tone is coming
very close to helping you find the the Viper's Den automatically. If you
want a preview, then click on the words "Viper's Den" in the post you are
refering to.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 16, 2002 1:22 PM
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Response to the Viper's Den Posters March 21 2002, 2:36 AM
This response is being addressed to the following:
(1) Anonymous (I.P. 68.53.149.90) - Re: The Truth (“Timeline,” 3/15/02)
(2) Anonymous (I.P. 68.53.149.90) - Re: Misunderstood (“Diverse Unity,” 3/8/02)
(3) Anonymous (I.P. 68.53.149.90) - Re: My Apologies (“Diverse Unity,” 3/13/02)
(4) Anonymous (I.P. 68.53.149.90) - Free to Worship (“Diverse Unity,” 3/16/02)
(5) Anonymous (I.P. 68.53.144.130) - Re: My Apologies (“Diverse Unity,” 3/14/02)
(6) Anonymous (I.P. 68.53.144.130) - Pagan Gods: explain … have they made
a golden calf? (“Diverse Unity,” 3/14/02)
(7) Anonymous (I.P. 68.58.107.96) - Re: Reply to Donnie Cruz’s That Explains
It (“Timeline,” 3/15/02)
(8) Needing Information (I.P. 68.53.163.11) - Needing Information (“Timeline,”
3/16/02)
The anonymous guest (I.P. 68.53.*.*, a “nash01.tn.comcast.net” subscriber)
and others who are unquestionably “change agents” brainwashed and mentored
by the secularized religious camp of the Saddleback church growth pattern
have been and are being given much freedom to express themselves and post
their messages on this website. However, some of these guests have abused
this freedom to the extent of making personal attacks against those who disagree
with their ideas, which are usually without scriptural basis. Their views
on many doctrinal issues essentially originate from individuals or groups
that have very little or no regard for (and actually often question) the
validity of the inspired scriptures. They accuse individuals who are able
to provide biblical references but disagree with them as being the attackers.
They fail to realize as we “earnestly contend for the faith” (Jude 3) that
we are NOT attacking them personally, but that we are simply verifying their
tenets to ensure that they are consistent with biblical teachings. They rely
heavily on the notion that “JUST BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY ‘NOT TO’”
makes certain practices permissible in God’s sight, RATHER THAN accept directives
and specifications from God as set forth in the Bible.
Let me explain further where the change messengers are coming from. These
posters know just when to “play dumb” and ask for explanations or information
on certain issues just to incite argumentation. Their crafty feigned expressions
of concern and understanding and compassion and their advocacy of this “love
factor” for people are not unnoticed. When it comes down to it, they are
rude and insensitive and actually despise their own alienated brethren who
have the guts to stand for the plain truth as revealed in God’s word. But
they proudly affiliate themselves with the forces of human-devised schemes
originated by Warren and Hybels, fostered by Lucado and Shelly.
The anonymous poster(s) claim that it’s the forum members that have “attacked”
individuals and have upset many people with the “garbage that has been posted
on this site” and are being unfair and have the “Jr. High mentality.” I really
think you are confusing the freedom of an individual to oppose someone else’s
beliefs on the basis of what’s revealed in the scriptures WITH the personal
attack on the character or reputation of an individual JUST LIKE what you’ve
done recently. Remember your recent post when you personally “attacked” me,
and that post has been moved to the “Viper’s Den,” which also contains YOUR
OTHER POSTS?
If you, as a change agent, came from the outside forces to help the Saddleback
cause, that explains what you are trying to accomplish. You have quite successfully
done your share of intrusion and interference and subversion of the once
peaceful and united Madison congregation. If you are an indoctrinated change
agent from within the congregation, I would urge you to thoroughly validate
the Saddleback behavioral pattern in light of the scriptures. The index page
and just about all the link pages of this website will direct you to what
the Saddleback scheme is all about. It is time you wake up from that Saddleback
mentality before you disrupt and divide the church any further.
Now, with reference to your personal attacks on me, here it goes. But before
I proceed, I am going to let you worry and wonder for a while, if your intention
is to drive me away from the Madison congregation. You are probably right
about one thing, i.e., with my stand for the truth and in opposition to your
idea of secularized religious concepts, I should have already left, correct?
NOT! Not for now, anyway. As long as I’m still able to shed some light or
truth against the Saddleback network and its divisive nature, I’ll continue
to share the truth with others and warn them before they are victimized.
I would like to express my own personal feelings about a number of unreliable
“facts” you enumerated. I must tell you that I’m very familiar with this
concept of “worship facilitation” as coined by the Saddlebackers. I’m very
familiar with this concept of “the call to worship” as envisioned by the
worship facilitators. Sound wonderful, huh? But you know what? There is nothing
unequivocal about the biblical precept in John 4:24 that we are to worship
God in spirit (the right mind, not being “full of yourself”) and in truth
(not religious performance or entertainment). Worship is not to be directed,
controlled and enhanced by some individual’s presence and occupation of the
entire stage like it’s a boxing ring and his being preoccupied with the quality
of his own performance on stage and the performance of his organized praise
team. This idea of worship style should not be in a Christian’s vocabulary
in the first place. Nor “traditional” worship. Nor “contemporary” worship.
These are Saddleback concepts and a very significant part of their objective
or deceptive scheme to draw New Testament Christians to the community movement
fold. Moreover, the implementation of the worship facilitation program (actually
an enforcement and imposition upon the church members) has caused the upheaval
at Madison. This upheaval should have really concerned the elders enough
for them to do something about immediately.
With all that in one’s consciousness - the fact that the church is divided
and that God is very unhappy with the situation - it would be very difficult
to worship Him in spirit and in truth. In addition, we are deceiving the
Lord when we claim unity in compelled diversity. Sorry, but on top of that,
the noise that handclapping rockers create is annoying. Actually, during
the “contemporary” worship assembly, it is easy to notice that MOST of the
Madison members are simply UNACCUSTOMED to the noise. It is noteworthy, though,
that handclapping hasn’t quite met the expected level of acceptance and success
as a part of the Saddleback worship regimen. It is done only by a FEW brave
coordinated ROCKERS who have learned or already have the skill of keeping
the handclapping activity in sync while (if they are even or at all) singing
a FEW of those UPBEAT action songs. The intentional emotion-driven activity
by design has to be done by the rock concert oriented, insensitive individuals.
Yes, it is still bothersome to many in attendance. It really gets my attention
and my focus, when I have to listen to it. Or should I say … out of focus?
I think it would be a similar experience if a few people were to suddenly
start WHISTLING during the singing. I suppose that in this case the person
would not have the necessary skill to whistle and sing at the same time.
Whistling will certainly get anybody’s attention and focus, including the
attention and focus of the handclapping performer. But regardless, handclapping
is a simulation of musical instrumentation. It is obviously not vocal or
singing from the heart. What I am trying to say is that my worship during
that particular “call to worship” period would be idol worship. Probably
not any more different from having the statue of the Virgin Mary in front
of me to help prepare my mind for worship. At least, I could consider the
statue just like a picture or a non-animated piece of furniture. In addition,
I don’t believe it is all right to be singing “It’s All Right” when the church
is not united in spirit because of what this worship facilitation program
has done to begin with. It is NOT ALL RIGHT when the body of Christ is suffering
the consequence of the worship facilitation program. Certainly, there are
some songs that express reverence to God and are worship material. But there
are other songs that express little regard for the respect that the name
of our Father in heaven deserves. In contrast to Old Testament times when
the name Jehovah was revered, certain new songs address God the Father as
if He were simply a casual friend or a neighbor next door, unworthy of that
kind of reverence. “Contemporary” religious “artists” need to be a little
more careful about that.
Now, back to the worship issue. Is the worship facilitator not aware of how
he has contributed to the church division? If he is not aware of it, then,
he should be. If that does not bother him and if he is more concerned about
his own performance, then, it should bother him enough to do something about
it. It’s just as much within his power (and he is getting more and more of
that) as the elders do in doing something about it. Warning to you I.P. address
68.53.149.90 and others that I am not attacking the person. He is a good
man. And there are many good people in this world. But I question his leadership
being in the right direction, when such leadership continues to sow discord
among the brethren. Is this really God wants?
“Fact: Donnie Cruz does not sing.”
Since when did God designate you to watch someone else sing? You must really
be skilled and multi-talented and a very able multi-tasker to sing, focus
on your singing, handclap, watch and listen to the worship “facilitator”
while hoping that he doesn’t fall off the stage, enjoy the “choir,” look
at the big screen for words to a song and making sure you are singing the
right line for the bass or tenor and not the soprano or alto … and still
keep up with individuals not singing? Or have you singled me out as your
target individual for not singing? I forgot one more thing … that your mind
is still on the Father above as you worship Him. You know what? I know a
little bit about music, and I rely so much on being able to read shaped notes.
You see … I usually sing bass because of my voice range. I’ll confess to
you that I am somewhat handicapped in that I have difficulty learning songs
“by ear” and I just don’t have that kind of musical inclination. I have to
read the notes! I have to read the notes! The fact of the matter is that
I don’t see the notes on the big screen! (Perhaps with the modern technology
and the power of visual aids you can help set that up for me and for other
handicapped individuals, and double the size of the big screen.) Also, I
get confused when I try to read the different lines for the different parts
displayed on the big screen without being able to read those notes. Besides
the noise of the handclapping performers, there is that solo lead rendering
by the worship director that I have to listen to. In addition, there’s that
entertainment rendered by the “praise team” to and for those in the assembly.
“Fact: The beautiful singing you refer to IS the congregation singing with
the song leader. Fact: There is NO praise team in corporate worship at the
Madison Church of Christ on Sundays.”
NO. The beautiful singing is rendered for the most part by the “praise team”
of selected individuals or volunteers who rehearse songs on a regular basis
in preparation for the worship facilitation program. (If you weren’t aware
of a crowd assembled for worship, you would think that you were listening
to a choir or chorus.) Since you’re so skilled at observing individuals who
aren’t singing, why don’t you observe what should be congregational singing
and contrast that with what would happen to the singing of the facilitation
song in the absence of the “praise team.” In essence, you should rephrase
your statement as follows: “The beautiful singing by the praise team that
you refer to IS the congregation singing with the song leader.” That would
be more factual.
It is really odd and self-contradictory for you to say that “there is NO
praise team in corporate worship…” when the “praise team” is a special feature
of the Saddleback movement that change agents like you put a lot of emphasis
on. And you also learned so well this “corporate worship” concept from Larry
Sullivan of the Strauss Institute that is affiliated with the Saddleback
behavior. Do you remember that his attempt to resolve the dispute some months
ago was to no avail?
“Fact: By your own admission, you make notes for those that need to know.
Why don’t these people come for themselves.”
Your implication is that I make notes just like a journalist does in order
to be able to report evil news. Let me remind you that I was very specific
about making notes about the length of time that each of the elders has served.
What’s wrong with ascertaining facts for me and for other people to know?
I know that more than anything else you are interested in promoting the church
movement’s growth pattern. But God is very displeased and unhappy about the
division going on in His body of believers. And the brotherhood should be
concerned that Christians are being lured into participating in secularized
activities and in promoting the watered-down version of the gospel of Christ.
Besides, 1 Corinthians 1:10 states “that ye all speak the same thing [united,
not diversified], and that there be no divisions among you … perfectly joined
together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 3:3; 11:18.)
Romans 16:17 is very specific about when the brethren are to “mark them which
cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned;
and avoid them.” What a powerful statement that is! So, if you are one of
the proponents of the Saddleback methodology for church growth causes division,
watch out! This passage makes no one an exception, elder or not, minister
or not.
“Donnie, why don’t you come downstairs and learn the TRUTH.”
Now, this is really telling me where you’re coming from. Do you mean “downstairs”
instead of the balcony so I could be better entertained by the “praise team”?
No, thanks! I’m afraid there’s still truth and nothing but the truth that
I have yet to learn. I hope you know that I am speaking of the Bible! And
my advice for you is not to “come downstairs and learn the TRUTH.” Learn
it from the most reliable source, the Bible.
To the post (Anonymous, 3/15/02) entitled: “Reply to Donnie Cruz, Re: That
Explains It:” (which has been moved to the “Viper’s Den):
I’m certain that you yourself would not appreciate being attacked personally,
either. And I have the feeling you are the same “anonymous” person who purposely
tries to irritate members who disagree with your stand on the Saddleback
issues. No, it does not bother me for someone to question what or why I may
be doing what I am doing or just what do I hope to accomplish (those were
your questions). No, I do not have a specific congregation in mind that I
am encouraging members at Madison to go to. (If I had my wish, it would be
that change agents stop dividing the church, start their own community church
group or congregate with the nearby Cornerstone Church where you will probably
adapt to a similar (your kind of) religious environment. No, I am not keeping
the same tabs on everything that happens “wherever” it is my membership is.
No one individual or group has ever asked me to keep tabs for this website.
The truth is that I am concerned about the change agents’ scheme that’s causing
members to leave and that I feel obligated to warn others before they are
victimized. No, I am not one of those “members at large” as you claim you
have met a few of those. No, Madison has been my home congregation for at
least 12 years. (If you wish so badly for me to leave Madison, keep wishing.)
No, I am accountable to God. No, I don’t seem free to stir up things anywhere
and everywhere. I have no desire like the change agents do to cause division
to achieve the mission of reaching the “unchurched” (your term). In an assembly,
yes, by definition singing should be congregational, not performed or dominated
by the “praise team.” Chapter and verse that requires what percentage of
the congregation MUST sing (your last question)? The answer is this: if there
are, say, 30 members of the “praise team” assembled with the other 970 folks,
it is definitely NOT LESS THAN 3% (although the praise team can make it sound
like a 90% participation).
To the one “Needing Information” on March 16, 2002 on how to get to the “Viper’s
Den” and commenting on forum posters who “can’t stand up to ANYTHING written
about them as having problems”:
How to link to the Viper’s Den? Yeah, right! As much and as how cruelly you’ve
posted your self-serving attacks? Try something else again. I have no problems
standing up to anything written or said against the truth. My advice to you
is to really study God’s word. Relying on the Saddleback pattern, rather
than the New Testament pattern, is very dangerous. Believe in Rick Warren
and others at your OWN RISK!
***************************************
Kenneth Sublett
Viper's Den March 22 2002, 12:00 AM
Jesus identified people as "vipers." They were identified by Jesus as hoping
that John wore SOFT clothing. That would have identified him as one of the
king's catamites who was supposed to be gay and happy.
They may have thought that they could "pipe" and force Jesus into the Dionysus
choral dance. This was reserved for women who sang, clapped and danced. The
lament was the Dionysus or Bacchus proof of utter defeat. If the clergy could
get Jesus to do the dance this would prove that He was terminally homosexual
consistent with all ancient and modern "priesthoods." This was the universal
Classical and Biblical message of singing with instruments: even ole David
stripped off naked. This was the HALAL form of praise which he confessed
meant that he was "making himself vile."
Outside of the Temple as a "like the nation's" urge to worship, music was
the arena of females or the effeminate. The Greek theater (always worship)
with singing sought to imitate the females and modern "charismatic" performance
which can make you feel "spiritual" is the imitation of the female. Therefore,
an expert on drama even in the modern world notes that:
*"I would argue that in Greek tragedy the cross-dressed actor was crucial,
a sign of the conventional nature of the drama. Male playing female is inevitably
distanced from the role and makes it clear that the role of the woman is
an idealization, not a realization.
**"In addition the male playing female indicates a possible relevance of
the form to dionysus, a god associated with masks and characterized by SOFTNESS,
woman's curls and dress (Bacchae) and worshipped with transvestite ceremonies
at the Oschophoria (Seaford; Segal 1982: 10-20, 158- 68, 214).
Those being made a laughingstock by God can get a better picture from Eurripides:
http://www.piney.com/DocEuripBacc.html
A Catholic records some of the absolute "signs of the times" consistent with
the ZOE movement--and remember that hand clapping is body drumming to stroke
your carnal senses because there is no spiritual sense:
"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration
of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration.
Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious
ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and
tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.
---He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and EFFEMINATE
MEN fell into this folly.
Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more
than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same
way that food and drink did.
Philo doubted that it was even possible to praise God with one's own words
and lips and wrote:
"Now, many a man from the false religions, which are not ashamed of criticising
what is noble, will ask: how can there be a feast without carousing and overeating,
without the pleasant company of hosts and guests, without quantities of unmixed
wine, without richly set tables and highly stacked provisions of everything
that pertains to a banquet, without pageantry and jokes,
bantering and merry-making to the accompaniment of flutes and citharas, the
sound of drums and cymbals
and other EFFEMINATE and frivolous music of every king,
enkindling unbridled lusts with the help of the sense of hearing. For in
and through the same [pleasures] those persons openly seek their joy, for
what true joy is their they do not know.
The grinders in the OT and those at the mill stones in the end-time Babylonian
Harlot worship were also prostitutes or concubines: Solomon's musicians and
concubines are defined by the same word:
"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter
the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this
service was universal: these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'."
(Johannes Quasten)
"Characteristic of all these cases is the familiar picture of a female chorus,
dancing and singing, accompanied by frenzied drum-beating. This is the scene
known to the entire Near East, and not "even the severe rule of Islam could
wholly suppress this age-old practice." (Int Dict of the Bible, Music, p.
457).
Lucifer (in the garden) as the king of Tyre was a "harp playing prostitute"
and the end time prostitute religion will seek to dominate.
The message is universal in recorded history: when the talented vocal groups
which induce hand clapping takes place you can know that Christian worship
is being perverted.
So, while the Israelites practiced the same spiritual adultery in musical
idolatry at Mount Sinai, they undoubtedly thought that the spectators were
clapping as applause. However, Moses said that they wwere making themselves
a LAUGHINGSTOCK.
History knows no exception to the rule that when musical and theatrical performance
dominated, the self-exhibition, as Aldos Huxley noted, degenerated into actual
perversion. He called the theatrical performance the clapping, singing attempt
to worship a Spirit God as "emotional masturbation" even as the Greeks sought
a "visual orgasm." The Vineyard "New Style Worship" fueling the Purpose Driven
Cults seeks "a climax with God." Worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit.
Those singing in a style which is proven to be abbrasive by its charismatic
result should be informed that the masculine world and God is watching and
waiting for your BUNNY battery to run down.
It ain't pretty.
Kenneth Sublett
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Charismatic Contemporary Style Continues: March 24, 2002 March 28 2002, 3:07
AM
As subtle changes take place ever so gradually at Madison, discord among
the brethren continues to be evident. The worship guide had a text box on
the other side (Second Service page) that says in big, bold letters “PRAISING
GOD WITH MUSIC” and to the left of it a subheading “Urging to Receptiveness”
with the following statement: “Singing praises to the Lord fills a unique
spot in the heart of the believer. In addition, our songs touch lives and
hearts of others who are just learning about Him. Our beautiful tradition
of a cappella singing in four-part harmony is a powerful way to share the
Good News with others and urge them to be receptive. Let’s all join in the
singing today!”
The Saddleback model for church growth is evident as worship to the Lord
in the second assembly has been modified for the church of Christ attendees
in that although singing is a cappella, music is the main thrust of the worship
service. Indeed, this conforms to the community church pattern as many songs
with the modern rock beat have originated from charismatic denominational
groups. It is different only because instruments are not used, but then who
knows what the elders are going to approve next. I have the strong feeling
that if instrumental music weren’t controversial, they would be used in worship.
So far, this style of worship has been customized for Madison.
Having two styles of worship is without question divisive. It is schizophrenic.
The first service is not “traditional” by any means. Although many of the
songs come from the thick songbook, music is much more emphasized than the
message in the songs and in the preaching and teaching of God’s word. In
addition, charismatic songs written by those with strong charismatic background
are also sung in the first service.
Part of the subtle changes taking place that members may be unaware of has
to do with the sermon delivery and observance of the Lord’s Supper. Sermons
are now designed to be shorter (as music is being emphasized more) and they
are designed to include jokes as part of the objective to entertain. I have
noticed, though, that jokes, which are sometimes unrelated to the sermon,
are usually told at the beginning and serve as the “introduction” part of
the speech. Sermons have been longer of late, it seems, than they were a
few months ago. But they may seem longer because they sometimes include long
announcements just before the sermon begins. Lately, I think they have run
out of human testimonials to relate to the congregation just prior to the
Lord’s Supper. I believe that reading from the Bible about Christ’s suffering
and death on the cross is very appropriate, or even moments of silence to
remember the cross.
This past Sunday, March 24, 2002, Robin Guidicy led the singing. So, besides
Keith Lancaster and Kevin Dunnebacke, Robin is another individual who is
very capable of leading singing. (Just a side note: Robin’s charismatic background
seemed to have surfaced. You know … interjecting words and phrases between
words and phrases or lines and still maintain the tempo … that’s impressive.
Speaking for myself, I somewhat messed up singing "Leaning on the Everlasting
Arms” because Robin uttered a word or what sounded like a hiccup at the beginning
of each line of the song. Charles Link was to lead the prayer before the
regular contribution. Bruce White led the prayer in his absence. Was Charles
Link out of town again or was he simply unable to attend? Are we expecting
Charles Link, who has served as an elder much longer than the 2 to 3 years
that most of the other elders have, to resign?
Chris Gingles always leads a beautiful prayer, but never fails to mention
the Holy Spirit. Good! But we know that the Holy Spirit dwells in us as baptized
believers. Does he pray for his continued dwelling in us or does he pray
for his direct operation or influence on us as he did on the apostles? I’m
concerned that before long some of the “leaders” will be convinced that they
have received the gift of speaking in tongues.
Members who are not so willing to accept only the truth may be thinking that
how we worship really doesn’t make any difference so long as we worship,
meaning that handclapping is really what God expects from us as we sing and
lifting “holy” hands and swaying to the music are trivial things. They fail
to realize that these are just the simple beginnings of things to come. Let’s
sample what speaking in tongues or experiencing it may be like (and I’ve
quoted this from www.piney.com) as follows:
Don Finto, charismatic and supporter of the Jubilee in Nashville asks Max
Lucado to speak some tongues, and he "speka me de kooky lika tunga me gruva."
"Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene
(his voice becomes hoarse and is reduced to an indistinguishable whisper).
Bear fose sone ta wentta lone (voice trails off into a whisper again). Da
lotta tongue de cush a wong do so coo toe. Ah shon da ba she dees ... O.
Lord, your good ... Gash a la mon sewer. El ah ma she sa (more whispering).
Fa kon a la ma dorman begetta see de so lawsuit...3"
3This was taken from the tape and spelled phonetically because the words
are not a part of any known language, unless it is the language of anilliterate
baby cooing and gurgling. The scripture says that if there is no interpreter,
it is unlawful to speak in a tongue 1 Cor. 14:27:28. The jabber of Rusty
was not interpreted. No reasonable person would claim the words of Rusty
on that fateful day in 1988 edified anybody. How could they?
With the charismatic background or leanings that some of the elders have,
it’s not even a question any more of what other changes are going to be implemented.
There will be more for certain. It’s just a matter of time that they believe
is appropriate. They can pray as much as they can for unity, but as long
as they implement methodologies to improve upon God’s simple plan of salvation,
the church will continue to be diversified OK and unity will never be achieved.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 29, 2002 11:11 AM
***************************************
Kenneth Sublett
Charismatic contemporary March 29 2002, 9:14 PM
I would like to share with you all how you too can:
Speka me de kooky lika tunga me gruva.
http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/editorials/agents/112_08_02.htm#one
This reporting also notes:
"Now, fast?forward to April 22, 1997. The scene: A Nashville Hotel banquet
room. The purpose: To get Nashville ready of the 1997 Jubilee. The chairman
of the meeting: Rubel Shelly, preacher for the Woodmont Hills Church in Nashville.
The speaker: Max Lucado, preacher for the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio.
An honored guest: Don Finto, preacher for the Belmont Church in Nashville."
In addition it reports on a paper delivered at Belmont showing how Don's
pilgimage out in the desert and God revealed that He was THE leader and an
apostle with WORLDWIDE AUTHORITY.
Is this the same Robin Guidicy who kinda smirks (in print) while giving his
"testimony" about discording some people with "me and my candle light service"
at another church?
Kenneth Sublett
***************************************
literal seed
concerned vipers? March 30 2002, 1:25 PM
Ken...what did Robin Guidicy do while leading singing that would lead you
to slanderous remarks?
ConcernedVipers...would this not qualify for "the den" or do you really have
selective editorial comment?
Ken...I thought it was just irrelevant verbal garbage that we had to sift
through...now personal attack.
I thought CW was harsh with you...not any more!
I pray that GOD will open the eyes of your heart.
ls
=========================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
DEAR LITERAL SEED;
We don't have to agree with what Mr. Sublett says, and neither do you.
Mr. Sublett puts his name on his work! This gives him a certain license you
do not have.
Your attacks will not be tolerated unless you want to use your name. Even
then your post would be subject to you acting like a guest, and subject to
the tolerance of the moderator.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 30, 2002 2:21 PM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 30, 2002 1:54 PM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 30, 2002 1:52 PM
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 30, 2002 1:39 PM
***************************************
literal seed
MESSAGE TO THE MODERATOR March 30 2002, 2:42 PM
Dear concernedmembers/moderators,
I now better understand the rules of posting. I realize this is "your" forum
only, and all that happens is at your pleasure. In the future, my pointed
remarks will be outside the forum and directly address the one that seems
offensive. I did that once before and was asked to put it in front of the
forum. What is your pleasure? Maybe next time I'll email both of you outside
the forum and you can decide whether to post or not.
It is obvious you monitor my responses, and that makes perfect sense to me.
Since you do monitor, I'm sure you've seen my question about "THE BOOK" you
have posted here. I'm sure you read it...if not wrote it. It doesn't matter
which the case. But since it is here would you answer a question for me inside
the forum our outside in my email. I was there when "10er" made his talk
in front of the Madison elders. I have read what is in "THE BOOK" on page
30 about "confession night." Could you or any one else, writer of "THE BOOK"
etc. let me know when this event may take place. I've been in the church
20+ years an can't remember one.
abiding in your rules by the grace of GOD
ls
==================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
Yes, your concern about "Confession Night" has been noted for some time!
The book "What Happened At The Madison Church Of Christ" mentioned that the
ConcernedMembers wondered why these confessions were being made on a night
where the gathering was to discuss other problems. The book mused.. that
it was not "confession night" The book did not intend for anyone to think
that there was indeed a "confession night". So you are right, there is no
"confession night" that we are aware of.
Thank You
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Mar 30, 2002 3:20 PM
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Concerned Vipers April 8 2002, 1:02 AM
Dear Literal Seed:
Your question on what Robin Guidicy did while leading singing should have
been addressed to me, instead of Kenneth Sublett. In response to what he
did, I would like to refer you to my article: “Charismatic Contemporary Style
Continues: March 24, 2002.” In that article I expressed the fact that Robin
is another musically talented song leader around. And I simply expressed
my not-so-musically-matching talent of being able to keep up with his charismatic
style of leading singing.
When you say to Ken “I pray that GOD [your emphasis] will open the eyes of
your heart” simply indicates your exemption from that being applicable to
you. Perhaps God will hear your prayer as you make that personal judgment
about someone in His presence.
***************************************
literal seed
Addressing the Attacker April 9 2002, 1:16 PM
Dear Donnie,
I think you missed the point! There was no reason to respond to your post
of March 24, 2002. I did not find anything out of line with what you reported.
What I did find offensive was the manner in which brother Kenneth slurred
Robin by his comments on your post.
Charismatic contemporary March 29 2002, 9:14 PM
I would like to share with you all how you too can:
Speka me de kooky lika tunga me gruva.
http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/editorials/agents/112_08_02.htm#one
This reporting also notes:
"Now, fast?forward to April 22, 1997. The scene: A Nashville Hotel banquet
room. The purpose: To get Nashville ready of the 1997 Jubilee. The chairman
of the meeting: Rubel Shelly, preacher for the Woodmont Hills Church in Nashville.
The speaker: Max Lucado, preacher for the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio.
An honored guest: Don Finto, preacher for the Belmont Church in Nashville."
In addition it reports on a paper delivered at Belmont showing how Don's
pilgimage out in the desert and God revealed that He was THE leader and an
apostle with WORLDWIDE AUTHORITY.
Is this the same Robin Guidicy who kinda smirks (in print) while giving his
"testimony" about discording some people with "me and my candle light service"
at another church?
Kenneth Sublett
Donnie, we are talking about matters of the "heart" here. What else would
have given Ken the motivation to attack? I pray that he will reflect on what
he said. I pray that God will open the eyes of all hearts that read this
post...yours and mine included...and let's seek the truth together. Since
we both attend the same fellowship, and we both attend the late service,
we have much in common. Would you like to start a bible study for those that
would like to search for the truth?
seeking His truth,
ls
***************************************
Kenneth Sublett
Robin's Candlelight and Christmas April 28 2002, 3:27 PM
I had not intended to publish this review which I sent in part to Robin about
the candle light Christmas.
Robin's approach is to define the "old" church of Christ:
"Many times we use the CRUTCH of TRADITION, but the root isn't tradition
it is instead IGNORANCE or FEAR. We are AFRAID of the UNKNOWN, the UNCHARTED,
or the UNSEEN.
"WE live on MILK instead of MEAT, and our REACTIONS to the SMALLEST, most
INCONSEQUENTIAL things are REFLECTIVE of that.
FURTHERMORE: he identifies his candlelight service as authentic and bible
based.
The POSTMODERN view is that all that came before ME is ignorance and the
NEW LIGHTS are SPIRITUAL AND AUTHENTIC.
THIS SOUNDS FAIRLY LIKE A SLUR TO ME AS PART OF THE HEGLIAN NEED TO SMASH
THE OLD (NEW WINESKINS, BURN DOWN THE OLD HOUSES JUBILEE-AZTEC PARADIGM)
BEFORE YOU CAN ESTABLISH THE NEW AND IMPROVED VERSION WHICH LOOKS, TO THE
OLD IGNORANTS, TOO MUCH LIKE BABYLON AND ROME.
I have reviewed some of Robin's attack on the old and added some more of
the ancient but modern view that candles provide the fire for S.U.N. worship
to replace the S.O.N. god. The "old folk" also believed that it was at best
just superstition and at worst devil worship.
We don't label Robin with that but we add enough label to show that the new
and improved at Madison is so wonderful that it runs people off in droves:
I have been told that an earthworm will not make the same mistake three times.
It also discounts the temptation to label the "stabbed in the heart" for
the thrust of the blade: "he could have dodged or found himself another church
to buy."
http://www.piney.com/MuCandles.html
The evidence is 100% that candles used in worship (rather than to just give
light) flows from Sun or Satan worship. There is no evidence that the MOVEMENT
created by flickering lights is SPIRITUAL in nature. Therefore, label me
ignorant and fearful and unable to "see the unseen" if I don't participate
with candles or what is called "the idolatry of talent." Jesus told me that
I can pray or praise in my closet and that is good enough for me.
Ken Sublett
***************************************
Kenneth Sublett
Robin Guidicy: Candle Light Services April 26 2002, 5:53 PM
In Pagan processions: "these were usually followed by the principal youth
of the place, in white linen vestments or surplices, singing hymns in honour
of the gods whose festivals they were celebrating,
accompanied by crowds of all sorts that were initiated in the same religion,
all with flambeaux or wax-candles in their hands."
Now, so thoroughly and exclusively PAGAN was this custom of lighting up lamps
and CANDLES in daylight, that we find Christian writers, such as Lactantius,
in the fourth century, exposing the absurdity of the practice,
and deriding the Romans "for lighting up candles to God,
as if He lived in the dark."
'The Candle Wax' from Out of the Box Thoughts from Robin Guidicy
http://robin.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=12877
I wrote to Robin more than a year ago but I am still waiting for a response.
I will quote Robin in part and you can read the rest if you have good eyes.
As usual, there is a need to ridicule everything as "traditionalism" to condemn
the "old" in order to make way for the "new revelation." But, before you
do I would remind you that Joseph Campbell, in Myths to Live By, notes that
as people loose faith in their old religion they begin to "crack away" and
"revert to the archaic" systems of religion. Whether right or wrong for you,
Candle Light services are the well-documented Archaic worship beginning in
Babylonia and bestowed on Israel because of their musical idolatry at Mount
Sinai. God "turned them over to worship the starry host." In Jerusalem they
used little babies as "wicks" to light up Molech so that he would give them
a revelation through the cries which were interpreted by the priests. In
Israel (Amos 5, 6, 8) it was Remphan or Chiun worshiped with music.
Robin's Theology: "It amazes me, how often we, as believers, muddle through
this life, hardly taking the time to NAVIGATE the waters of spiritual growth.
So much so, that when we have a positive spiritual EXPERIENCE it comes as
a pleasant surprise.
Ken Spiritual (rational) growth comes from eathing spiritual food: the Word
of God.
Robin: "Many times we use the crutch of tradition, but the root isn't tradition
it is instead ignorance or fear. We are afraid of the unknown, the unchartered,
or the unseen.
Robin: "We live on milk instead of meat, and our reactions to the smallest,
most inconsequential things are reflective of that.
Ken's Response: Paul knew only Christ and Him crucified because the Corinthians
were not yet ready for the MEAT OF THE WORD. They were still carnal and based
on the background of Corinth they were plagued with looking for PHYSICAL
proof that they were worshiping a Spirit God. As far as Paul and history
knows they never moved far beyond the CANDLE-POWERED pagan worship.
Robin: "We had a candlelight service Christmas Eve at our church, for the
first time. In ANY other religion it would not matter, but for us, candles
are a big issue. The rest of the world burns them you know, and we don't.
In fact, I'm not really sure what we did before Edison invented the light
bulb. Perhaps the moon was closer to the earth and provided the needed light.(ha)
Ken: WE burned kerosene because candles would be the most cost intensive,
luxurious, candle-power resource: only rich people had candles where I grew
up. Sure, people burn candles for some events but trying to worship a Holy
Spirit God with fire worship is not post modern: maybe post flood. I don't
believe that I have ever heard candles mentioned in the church of Christ
except during weddings.
Robin: "In truth, we in the church of Christ have become OBSESSED with making
sure the rest of the world knows that Christmas Day isn't Jesus birthday,
and so, we refuse to sing the songs of the season, or talk about his birth
at all.
Ken: Not so. I have lived over 71 years and have heard little about Christmas.
It is Rubel Shelly who wants to "baptize" Santa and even the S.U.N. god as
the S.O.N. God. Both Christmas, Santa and candles are intimately related
to ancient S.U.N. worship to which God TURNED ISRAEL OVER because of their
musical IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. I have worked in churches from Alabama,
to Tennessee, to Indiana, to Minnesota, to Washington state and back to Tennessee
which sang Christmas songs for the kids. Therefore, I believe this is simply
the ploy to make churches of Christ look silly in order to instill some Lynn
Anderson's NAVIGATING schemes. Rubel Shelly uses the same ploy to make those
who will not worship with instrumental groups as something like brother killers,
fire bombers of clinics and attackers of ladies wearing furs. Blacks in Seattle
were told of those who opposed instruments that this meant that they would
be present-perfect-tense "racists." They lied, cheated and stole their building
also after being impowered by Willow Creek (lifted by Saddleback), Jubilee
and the Zoe Group.
Robin: "So, late on the night before Christmas, we gathered in the auditorium,
by the flicker of a candle and worshipped our God. Those of our congregation
that attended were moved, and want it to become an annual service.
Ken: from the Towers of Babylon onward people have always believed that BEING
MOVED means worship. It may be or it may not be: music creates endorphins
or Morphine-Within and the goose-bump quotient is a measure of how drugged
up you are.
Robin: My God looks for authentic, BIBLE-based worship, that focuses on him
and not the worshipper. The lighting, temperature, clothing, carpeting, are
of no consequence.
Ken: I don't know how you can get a flickering fire out of the Bible's teaching
about "worship." The primary worship word applied to the assemblies means
"to give heed to the Word." That even defines David when he is said to be
worshiping a spirit God. If we "give attention" to the candle then we are
engaged in fire worship.
Robin: It was reported to me that someone had found candle wax on the carpet,
during he next week. "Thats great, I replied, "Someone was here worshippng
God."
Ken from here down: SIGNS or MARKS? Candle wax evidence of worship? That
is what the witches and neo-pagans believe about their circle around the
fire with candles.
If the test is "my feelings" you are not talking about your spirit or mind
(nous) as the holy place (naos) which is the only PLACE God plans to meet
you, then you believe that if if feels good to us it must feel good to God.
That is why "musical worship teams" were anciently known as "the harem of
the gods."
My point is that the stream of history gives us good reasons for not believing
that a pleasant custom is worship -- as in ancient fire worship. For instance,
our old traditionalists may have understood what the Catholic Encyclopedia
always lays out so honestly: they had no motive for relying on the Word but
adopted paganism into the church as it became dominated by the Roman Empire.
That was the easy way to get lots of new "members" but of course they had
to compromise. That is where they also got their "converted" paid priesthood.
The whole article from the Catholic Encyclopedia is here. I find that if
you want to know anything then dictionaries and encyclopedias certainly help.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03246a.htm
"Candles
>> The word candle (candela, from candeo, to burn) was introduced into
the English language as an ecclesiastical term, probably as early as the
eighth century. It was known in classical times and denoted any kind of taper
in which a wick, not uncommonly made of a strip of papyrus, was encased in
wax or animal fat.
>> We need not shrink from admitting that CANDLES, like incense and
lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and in the rites paid
to the DEAD.
>> But the Church from a very early period took them into her service,
just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed
proper to enhance the splendour of religious ceremonial.
>> We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like
MUSIC, LIGHTS, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens,
bells, vestments, etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular;
they were COMMON TO ALMOST ALL CULTS.
Alexander Hislop associates the candles with the worship of Nimrod at the
Tower of Babel and of devil worship.
http://www.piney.com/His55.html
The wax-candle was, in fact, a hieroglyphic, like so many other things which
we have already seen,
and was intended to exhibit the Babylonian god in one of the essential characters
of the Great Mediator.
I clearly understand that motives make the difference but these notes (if
you are listening) should explain why the older scholars understood the symbolism
of candlelights as an attempt to worship God by adopting pagan rituals such
as music which appeals only to the flesh. At least we can say that it is
grossly unfair to brand those who will not participate in what was ancient
fire worship or Devil worship as: "muddlers, not interested in spiritual
growth, depending on crutches, being ignorant, being fearful, not able to
'see the unseen,' living on milk, being reactionary to inconsequential things."
And the proof of superiority is getting the freedom to resurrect ancient
(but end-time) Babylonian superstitions.
No, I am not attacking Robin but I am attacking the views promoted by the
Jubilators that if we don't baptize most any practice "to be as much like
the world as possible" then we are backward sinners. If you want to find
out whether it is churches of Christ who are OBSESSED with not worshiping
Santa, Ishtar, Candles and Musical "idolatry of talent" just look up the
word on the internet and tell me if you can find a COC article anti-Christmas!
Robin's article is the only one I have read by a church of Christer.
Ken Sublett
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
"FAVORITE" EASTER SUNDAY -- March 31, 2002 April 6 2002, 5:00 AM
Notes from the “Madison Marcher” (March 27, 2002):
Bruce White: “We are going to have a great day next Sunday. It is Easter,
and we [are] looking for a large crowd. I especially want to see the children
in the colorful clothes.” Of the “Great Day in May” (May 5): “… will have
a big lunch under the tent at 12:00. One of our choruses will entertain at
1:30.” There was no mention this time that the “Jr. High will meet in the
Jr. High assembly area for “Jesus 101.” (More about meetings like this one
will be written in the future.)
One page (the Second Service page) again showed a bolded text box with these
words: “PRAISING GOD WITH MUSIC.” (It appears that this message will be around
for a while.) Since music is either “vocal or instrumental sounds having
rhythm, melody, or harmony,” which message is the church trying to convey:
(1) singing with grace and making melody in your heart to the Lord according
to Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16; or (2) singing praises to God and
worshiping Him with musical instruments according to (the Pope or the Catholic
Church that originated it: III Papacy chapter 999, verse 1); or (3) the “praise
team’s” a cappella singing (to and for the congregation) and clapping to
simulate the musical noise of instruments and stimulate the emotional nerve
endings?
Some of the songs such as “You Are My All in All” and “You Are the One for
Me” and “My Only Hope is You” do not seem to express reverence to the holy
name of our Father in heaven, and I’m just concerned how non-Christians could
easily misinterpret the true meaning of a song. And what is the song “Christian
Jubilee” supposed to imply to Christians today? Is there also a Christian
Sabbath for us today? How close are the elders to imposing Christian tithing?
The worship facilitator made a remark about the wonderful excitement experienced
during the wonderful singing. The preacher usually has something to say about
the worship facilitator. As the TREND continues, who will be considered in
the future as the stronger leader between the two? As the TREND continues,
will the elders assume more of that “leadership” role than that of overseeing
to feed and of sparing the flock (Acts 20:28,29)?
The speaker’s introductory remark was “… this is my favorite Sunday of the
year, Easter Sunday.” While emphasis was on the resurrection of Christ, I
believe that people that attend services only this time of the year, visitors
and some of the members alike, were given the impression that the resurrection
is more important in the lives of Christians on this particular Sunday than
on other Sundays of the year. It also reminds me of the emphasis on other
“religious” holidays instilled in the minds of the youth. The attendance
was quite good during the second service. However, that would have been the
kind of attendance we’d normally expect in times past (i.e., prior to the
upheaval). (I once asked for a church directory. None was available as I
was told that there had been a plan to have a new directory but it failed
when the “upheaval” came about.) In the middle of the sermon, the speaker
screamed “Hallelujah!” and probably woke up a few in the audience. What was
that for? I suppose there’s nothing wrong with an exclamation like that.
Where did that come from? We would normally associate that with charismatic
affiliation. Has he been mentored by Rubel Shelly, possibly? Just wondering!
Pardon my frivolity! But I’m not whining. I am not being negative and pessimistic.
I simply want to express what I observe is gradually and subtly transforming
the Madison congregation. The elders are not doing anything to solve the
division caused by the “change agents” (whoever and wherever you are, and
God says to “mark them that cause divisions among you”). You must know that
the ConcernedMembers and certain individuals trying to search and reveal
the truth and are being personally “attacked” did not bring about the “upheaval.”
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers on Apr 6, 2002 10:43 AM
***************************************
Member:
Answer To Donnie's "Favorite" EasterSunday: April 6 2002, 11:07 PM
Donnie, you must be hurting for something to complain about. When you say
you are not whinning, just who do you think you are kidding?
Just keep writing, more and more people will see you for what you really
are. The last I knew it did not take too smart a person to be a wrecker.
LETS JUST SAY YOU DIDN'T START THE "UPHEAVEL" AS YOU SAY, I SAY YOU ARE TRYING
YOUR BEST TO KEEP IT GOING. If this site gives you enough space (rope) you
will hang yourself. You could stop now and perhaps spare yourself.
By the way, did you worship Sunday while you were taking your notes? Was
that a spiritual exercise or a physical exercise?
The story of the Prodigal Son is tragic in that the young man did not come
to him self before he had wasted everything and at the bottom of the pig
pin. Will you have to go all the way to the bottom or will you ever come
to your senses. You must be a miserable person inside. But some people think
a Christian is suppose to be un-happy. If he is happy he can't show it, especially
at worship. God have mercy.....
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Member "Hurting" April 8 2002, 12:51 AM
I'm sorry to hear about your nonchalant attitude toward the upheaval that
has happened and has continued to happen as people like you have no regard
or concern that God's church in this community is divided -- an embarrassment
to the community and to the world. Don't you have enough sense to know that
God detests this so badly that if people weren't allowed to have their freedom,
God would probably do something to those people? Of course, God would not
do that. Not this time anyway. But I'm sure as there is day and night that
this division propagated by people who have something to do with it is HURTING
God. He is hurting worse than I am hurting. Yes, I am hurting for the truth
not being revealed to members who deserve to know what is going on. But I
advise you to not worry about me hurting. OK? Because God is hurting worse.
And with the right conscience, that should bother you too.
I never believe that I am furthering the upheaval. Not for a moment. If I
were, you would be experiencing it. But I don't see that in you except that
you despise me having to tell the truth that matters. You don't have to believe
what I say. But let me feel free to express myself and expose the root of
the problem. It needs to be extracted. That should be your concern as well
as mine.
Don't tell me I should not take notes. That was one thing that members used
to do that is not being done now because of the emphasis on musical entertainment
and jokes in sermons now-a-days. People hardly take God's word seriously
anymore. If you were paying attention to the messages being delivered, you
should be able to check them out to see if they are in accordance with the
scriptures. Yes, taking notes during sermon delivery is part of my worship,
which includes more than just singing.
I am convinced that your lack of concern for disunity is a reflection on
what your stand is on what God deserves. Perhaps, your mission does not go
beyond the propagation of the Saddleback behavior (if you even know what
their mission is).
***************************************
Dotty
Irreverent songs? April 8 2002, 12:52 PM
Donnie,
What specifically is wrong with the songs "You Are My All in All", "You Are
the One for Me", and "My Only Hope is You"? Especially "My Only Hope is You"
- how is that irreverent? The exact words are "My only hope is you, Jesus,
my only hope is you. From early in the morning till late at night, my only
hope is you", 2nd verse - "My only peace is you, Jesus, my only peace is
you. From early in the morning, till late at night, my only peace is you",
3rd verse - "All that I need is you, Jesus, all that I need is you. From
early in the morning till late at night, all that I need is you." Please
tell me what is wrong with that song (and the other two). I see nothing wrong
with the words, certainly nothing irreverent, and it's a slow song with no
clapping, no "rock beat".
***************************************
Anonymous
Re: Favorite Easter Sunday April 8 2002, 4:58 PM
Pardon my comments but I feel this needs to be said. Donnie who are you to
judge the way Christians worship. Until your heart is in the right place
I don't believe that you have any business doing what you doing and "being
a spy" for all your friends. Until you grow up and learn that church starts
at 10:30am and its not a time to take note of what the Madison Church of
Christ is doing during their worship services. It's people like you who are
causing this problem to continue when it is a thing of the past. Why don't
you truly come to realize the point of what true worship is. If you do not
like the way Madison is why do you have to be a scapegoat and stick your
big nose in teh middle of it.
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Anonymous [and Unknown Captive] April 9 2002, 12:20 AM
I think you should be mature enough yourself to identify who you are. I believe
your viewpoint on worship does not go beyond the 10:30am service. You failed
to mention the early services. Is it because you know fully well that there
is real diversity - NOT unity? When did you start thinking that the problem
is a thing of the past? Don’t you realize that members are continuing to
leave? Still? It’s still the aftershock in effect.
Your attitude about the division just might be a byproduct of the Saddleback
mission to split a congregation so that whatever membership is left is their
captive, after the mission has “eradicated” everybody else and everything
else that does not conform or belong. It’s sad that you have become a victim
of some trap that you definitely are not even aware of.
As far as “being a spy” is concerned, that is nothing else but your assumption
because you undoubtedly know who these “friends” are. To tell you the truth,
I don’t even know these “friends” personally; I haven’t even met them. So,
my worship is my own; you don’t know what’s in my heart. At least, I make
notes because I try to learn more about God’s word. It just happens that
I check out what I hear to find out if it is scriptural. What do you do during
sermon delivery? Do you know anything about retention of what you hear and
learn? Are you just thrilled because you get to hear the Madison choir and
its worship facilitator perform? If you limit your worship to just singing,
it’s time you question your own self.
I like Madison, and I am not a scapegoat for this website. What I do not
like (and much more so with the way God feels about it) is the division that’s
been caused by the change agents of the Saddleback/community church movement
that has infiltrated the once-peaceful-and-united Madison congregation. There
is definitely no unity with the diversity in worship styles. Do you recognize
the simple fact that this appears to the community and the rest of the world
that there are definitely two groups of worshippers sharing the same building?
I am not judging the way Christians worship. I simply despise the fact that
we aren’t able to show the world that we are collectively of the same mind
and of the same spirit as we should. In reality, the membership has sunk
to its lowest and is still going to the point that there is not any need
to have separate services. And if that should be so, which worship style
do you think would dominate? You know the answer to that. And that’s sad.
You also know why many members (hundreds) have left. Meaning that if we know
the root of the problem in the first place, then that problem should be eliminated.
So, it is my business to point out the reasons for the division, no matter
how trivial they may seem to you. Otherwise, anybody would just conclude
that members just leave for no reason at all. So, it’s time you started being
concerned about what’s happening and learn as well to mark those that cause
divisions. The Bible is very clear about that. So, grow up! We are not dealing
with the world of secularism, We are dealing with spiritual matters, and
it’s time you started being concerned about the 1500+ members who no longer
fellowship WITH YOU!!!
***************************************
Grace
Re: Anonymous [and Unknown Captive] April 9 2002, 11:18 PM
Re: Anonymous [and Unknown Captive] April 9 2002, 12:20 AM
I have monitored this site for a while and have just a passage of scriptures
I'd like to share regarding the aforementioned post by Mr. Cruz.
You said "it is my business to point out the reasons for the division, no
matter how trivial they may seem to you."
I call your attention to Titus 3:9-11 "But avoid foolish controversies and
genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable
and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man
is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." I do not expect this post to
be published because here is where the real truth lies.
If you feel so inclined, you have warned about divisiveness over and over.
Isn't it scriptural after the second time for you to have nothing to do with
a divisive person (or people)? If you do feel that there are "change agents"
and such at Madison, would it not be scriptural based on this scripture alone
for you to no longer attend there?
The bible states that continuing to quarrel is unprofitable and useless,
will you heed the warning?
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Certain Elders to Meet with a Concerned Member April 8 2002, 1:31 AM
Subject: Services on 4/7/02; Certain Elders to Meet with a Concerned Member
Worship guide continues to show the bolded text box with words: “PRAISING
GOD WITH MUSIC.” This time the “praise team” deserved praise under the title
of “Praise Teams Encourage.” I’m sure the worship facilitation program would
want this message repeated here in its entirety:
“Our church is committed to a cappella, congregational singing. Many enthusiastic
and growing congregations [like Madison?] have found that praise teams strengthen
and support their a cappella singing. A praise team is a group of singers,
prepared in advance to encourage the singing led by the worship leader, so
that everyone can hear the parts of every song - old and new. They are invaluable
in learning songs and in hearing each part. Praise team members are servants,
not stars.
“The praise team exists to bring hearts together and in tune with God through
song. Among the voices and faces that make up the praise teams there is a
variety so that the congregation realizes it is the message of the songs
that is important and not the individuals themselves.”
Since I’ve written much about the “praise team,” I am not going to comment
any more than the fact that the message failed to mention handclapping to
a number of songs as a motivator/enhancer to the a cappella singing of this
choir group because it is really needed. I also just misunderstood that the
rest of the congregation is not part of the “praise team” - s special designation
for the “praise team” only.
The Marcher mentions this time that the “Jr. High meet in the Jr. High assembly
area for “Jesus 101.”
Noteworthy is part of the sermon that mentioned that the constant asking
for money and the “miraculous healing” ceremonies by the TV evangelists are
parallel to and are not any different from the things done in churches today
- we also contribute and (note this --) that we also pray for the sick in
the church. Whoa! Do you see the parallel between the miraculous healing
powers “bestowed” upon the TV evangelists and the “regular” and humble prayers
that Christians pray for the sick? Remember last week? It was a surprising
“Hallelujah!” on the pulpit. Now it's about miraculous healing powers that
only the apostles had? We are slowly but surely getting there, folks! Transformation
at Madison is continuing!
Lastly, when the services ended, I was surprised to know how Mr. Buck Dozier,
one of the elders, found me and knew who I was, came to meet me personally.
We had a little conversation. The gist of it all was that he and two or three
other elders would like to schedule a meeting with me at my convenience.
He did mention the (second?) letter I had sent earlier. He also mentioned
having read [some or all of?] my articles posted to this website. It will
be very interesting. At least I now know that some concerned members are
being heard - late as it may be. Be assured that I will keep everyone
***************************************
David Hardin
Is His resurrection a reason for praise? April 10 2002, 12:17 PM
1 Corinthians 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be
changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we
will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable,
and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with
the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is
written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[1]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[2] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power
of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through
our Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree with Paul, Peter and Bruce, when speaking of the resurrection of
Jesus.
“Hallelujah!”
Acts 17
17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks,
as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.
18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him.
Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked,
"He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was
preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took
him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him,
"May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?
1 Peter 1
2To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia,
Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge
of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience
to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy
he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish,
spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,
When did giving God praise for the resurrection of Jesus mark one as an evil
man in the church of Christ? Or when did such become a reason to mark such
a man?
The converse seems to be true. Do you deny His resurrection? Or do you just
think it evil to praise God for that resurrection? Will you give him praise
for the resurrection or not? Please answer.
Jude
10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand;
and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these
are the very things that destroy them.
Should praising God for the Gospel mark one as an evil doer in your eyes
put my name down.
David Hardin
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Is His resurrection a reason for praise? April 10 2002, 11:03 PM
David:
You missed my main point. From the tone of your message, you seem to have
a strong “charismatic” background. (Not to make fun of your background, I’m
simply observing what I think is your religious affiliation. I hope you understand
what I mean.)
Anyway, I brought up two points in that article:
(1) That of all things, the resurrection of Christ is very important in our
lives! So important that we should not think of it as a one-Sunday-of-the-year
celebration. That is why we observe the Lord’s Supper every first day of
the week (Acts 20:7) as commanded because of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection.
I hope this clears matters up.
(2) That I was simply making a point that the “charismatic” aspect of the
community church movement that has infiltrated the Madison congregation is
now slowly creeping in, whether or not you feel that it is the right move
for Madison.
Yes, we all should be praising God for the gospel, not the adulterated gospel.
And that doesn’t mark one as an evildoer. The church of Christ is FOR (not
against) the resurrection of Christ every first day of the week, not just
on “Easter.”
***************************************
David Hardin
Why is praising God for the reurrection Charismatic/wrong? April 11 2002,
10:34 AM
Donnie,
I am from a conservative church of Christ background. I like you go not believe
in speaking of the resurrection just once a year. But every Sunday! The Lord’s
Day is about the resurrection!
But I do not understand why you see Bruce saying “Hallelujah!” to the resurrection
as being charismatic. When did the church stop saying “Hallelujah!” to the
resurrection from the dead? Is that something that should be restored? Not
just on Easter morning.
We sing, “Great things he has taught us! Great things he has done! And great
our rejoicing through Jesus His son! And purer and higher and greater will
be our wonder our transport when Jesus we see! Praise the Lord! Praise the
Lord! Let the Earth hear his voice!… And give Him the glory Great things
He has done!” Do we not mean what we have sung for many years? Does this
great rejoicing make us charismatic? Is this a bad thing that should be marked?
Bruce did not get out of control. It was done decently and in order.
If saying “Hallelujah!” to the resurrection from the dead is not an aspect
of the worship at the Madison church of Christ, then maybe there are some
aspects of the “charismatic” community church movement that we could learn
from.
In love,
David H
***************************************
literal seed
Celebrate the Resurrection When? April 12 2002, 7:21 AM
Donnie,
In your post dated:
Donnie Cruz
Posted Apr 10, 2002 11:03 PM
I understand you are defending the cofC practice of Lord's Supper on the
first day of the week instead of annually or other periodic observance prevelant
in other denominations. (Point 1 of 2 discussed)
I don't however believe that the scripture you quoted has anything to do
with our weekly observance. By the context of scripture it just seems that
the believers were coming together for a week long prayer meeting in Troas.
The day before it was over is the setting that you speak of in Acts 20:7.
I believe that they decided to have a big meal because of the time they anticipated
in being together that day. See if you don't agree with me. (Beginning with
Acts 20:1)
1 When the trouble stopped, Paul sent for the followers to come to him. After
he encouraged them and then told them good-bye, he left and went to the country
of Macedonia. 2 He said many things to strengthen the followers in the different
places on his way through Macedonia. Then he went to Greece, 3 where he stayed
for three months. He was ready to sail for Syria, but some Jews were planning
something against him. So Paul decided to go back through Macedonia to Syria.
4 The men who went with him were Sopater son of Pyrrhus, from the city of
Berea; Aristarchus and Secundus, from the city of Thessalonica; Gaius, from
Derbe; Timothy; and Tychicus and Trophimus, two men from the country of Asia.
5 These men went on ahead and waited for us at Troas. 6 We sailed from Philippi
after the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Five days later we met them in Troas,
where we stayed for seven days.
7 On the first day of the week, we all met together to break bread, and Paul
spoke to the group. Because he was planning to leave the next day, he kept
on talking until midnight. 8 We were all together in a room upstairs, and
there were many lamps in the room. 9 A young man named Eutychus was sitting
in the window. As Paul continued talking, Eutychus was falling into a deep
sleep. Finally, he went sound asleep and fell to the ground from the third
floor. When they picked him up, he was dead. 10 Paul went down to Eutychus,
knelt down, and put his arms around him. He said, "Don't worry. He is alive
now." 11 Then Paul went upstairs again, broke bread, and ate. He spoke to
them a long time, until it was early morning, and then he left. 12 They took
the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.
Do you notice in verse 7 the purpose of meeting and breaking bread? Do you
notice again in verse 11 that he broke bread? Was this the second time..or
only time? Does this indicate the length of our meetings should be all day
and into the night with the breaking of bread at the end? I don't think this
has anything to do with observing the Lord's Supper.
What I do know is the "command" in Luke 22:19-20.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them,
saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of
me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament
in my blood, which is shed for you.
I can see where legalists would say since this was done at the Passover meal
which occurs once a year, we do it at the same time yearly. I prefer to ascribe
to the practice that one can celebrate the offering of His body and blood
for the sins of the world anytime one would "remember" the sacrifice.
My point is there is no prescribed time to follow this command. My personal
preference is to partake any time my heart draws close and is lead to observe
this "remembrance"...I do feel that corporate observance as part of "worship"
is "collectively uplifting."
Donnie, thank you for continuing to focus my attention on the Word for understanding.
I pray that all who read the positions of posters in this forum will take
the same avenue. I believe if we do, we will glorify God by our efforts to
draw close to Him, and His Spirit will continue to both counsel and comfort
us.
blessings
ls
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Anonymous [and Unknown Captive] of April 9, 2002 April 10 2002, 11:10
PM
Grace:
I’m so glad you quoted Titus 3:9-11. That is exactly my point. The “change
agents” (you are right that I “have warned about divisiveness over and over”)
are the instigators and the propagators of the division that you have now
been REALLY made aware of. Besides, the controversies are not foolish because
they DEFINITELY deal with spiritual matters. It may not be a BIG DEAL to
you, but it is to your fellow Christians who have left or who are considering
leaving. So, as long as these controversies are not foolish (and they are
not because we are talking about God’s church), I feel that kind of warning
does not apply to me. Besides, the Bible says to “mark them [the change agents]
which cause divisions” (Romans 16:17). I’m certain there is an unlimited
number of times that a Christian can do this. Especially since the preceding
verse happens to mention the “churches of Christ.” And there are supporting
passages - I Corinthians 1:10; 3:3; 11:18. Having two separate styles of
worship services clearly indicate brethren being not of the same spirit of
harmony, rather two groups of worshipers sharing the same church building.
The change agents should not have been allowed the takeover in the first
place. They should have started to build their own!!!!
Keep “monitoring” this site. I think it will do you good.
***************************************
Catherine
Comments on "Is His resurrection a reason for praise?" April 10 2002, 11:50
PM
If praising God in worship (which I believe is a verb, also) marks you as
an evildoer, then mark me as one, too.
"Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing
songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the
church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord
will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess
your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.
The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:13-16.
I am praying for sick minds and sick bodies and for the sickness that the
evil one has caused to break out among those who should love each other --
baptized Christians, all.
Do you pray for the Christians at Madison Church of Christ with a sincere
heart? Will anyone answer this?
***************************************
literal seed
Response to "Will anyone answer this?" from Cathernie 4.10.02 April 11 2002,
10:12 AM
Catherine,
I pray daily for God's children at Madison and those that have chosen to
go elsewhere. I pray for the church around the world. My prayers are heartfelt
and sincere. I pray specifically for His church, each and every saint to
be moved in one most important direction...reach their individual sphere
of influence with both the message and evidence of His love. I pray that
we all be concerned for eternal security of all we meet. Be equipped as the
Spirit moves on hearts. Be bold in proclaiming the message. Leave the rest
to God. Observe the privilege that He will extend to you...watching Him work
and adding to His Kingdom. Will any take the time to show up and watch Him
work?
Thank you again Catherine for prompting my response.
ls
***************************************
Ray Pippin
Answer to "Is His Resurrection A Reason For Praise?" April 11 2002, 10:23
PM
Amen! David. You hit the nail on the head. I agree, if praising God for raising
Jesus from the dead makes a person "charismatic" (from the way some use that
word you would think it is evil) then I must confess I am guilty. And, may
the guilty number increase. If I ever become upset when people "praise" God,
I hope I become ashamed of myself. God Bless! And God have mercy on those
who praise Him just for show. I don't know of any but Donnie sounds like
he does.
I join with Bruce, you and anyone else who says,
"Hallelujah" HE IS RISEN!! I think the word comes from the Hebrew word, which
means, "praise to Jehovah". Love to all..RP
***************************************
Donnie Cruz
Re: Irreverent Songs? (4/8/02) April 13 2002, 5:26 AM
This is in response to Dotty’s comment as she writes:
Donnie,
What specifically is wrong with the songs "You Are My All in All", "You Are
the One for Me", and "My Only Hope is You"? Especially "My Only Hope is You"
- how is that irreverent? The exact words are "My only hope is you, Jesus,
my only hope is you. From early in the morning till late at night, my only
hope is you", 2nd verse - "My only peace is you, Jesus, my only peace is
you. From ear