A note from the editor: We believe that the name listed below, "Bobby Mason" is ficticious and was just used by the writer of this email to cover his identity.
"I wonder if people like you are really members of the church or if you are part of some outside evil cult trying to pull it apart...regardless, "
"There have been people, fueled by the rhetoric of people like you, that have gone so far as to vandalize Jimmy Sites' car, end death threats to Jimmy and to Keith and go all over the brotherhood saying that Jimmy is a "false teacher" and Keith only wants personal glory. "
"You may claim to know the agenda. I've heard people saying this one and that one were from Saddleback and this other far-out stuff. The Madison website claims Tom Haddon has been to Saddleback which is an outright lie. But, it is this kind of off the wall, lies are okay, anything goes approach to getting what people want out of the church that is so scary. I would pray, this is not what you advocate."
Entire email is below with Kenneth Sublett's response in blue;
I was just on your website and I had some questions for you. Have you ever been to the Madison Church of Christ? If so, have you been lately? I went to 2nd service to see what all the fuss was about. Yes, there are a few people raising there hands and a few people clapping in the 2nd service but overall, it didn't seem to be much different at all from the regular service.
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
I was called for help because I have followed the Jubilee attack from the beginning and know that Post-Modern means post-Biblical: only a Core Gospel left. When people confidently speak for God and claim that He wants us to do "body worship" and explain in detail what is happening then I can match up the charges with the confessions and know what is going on by knowing who is involved. I had 6th grade Bible with Ira North and watched Madison grow and grow. However, when I saw the preacher particating in the "cowboy worship motif" I began to worry. What is going on behind the scenes is more that you apparently are seeing. One suspects that with all of those people leaving (1500 by some counts) because of the new "worship format" and because of a few spiritually courageous men "testing the spirits" one might suspect that everything has been toned down.And what is trying to be pushed onto Madison fits the pattern so perfectly that I was called and asked why I knew in infinite detail what was happening. My response is that this is the pattern pushed by Jubilee and the Zoe process to turn church from synagogue or "school" into "a venue for Rock and Roll." (direct quote)
I watched my old flock come from Seattle to Nashville to learn how to take over a church and turn it into a most radical "Christian Church." The people I helped hire got dissociated at PK 96 in atlanta, had some of the Nashville people lay hands on him, was "baptised with the Holy spirit" and claims to be, like some in Nashville, one of the 13th apostle. They lied, cheated and stole the property as "the church houses of widows" and followed the identical Jubilee/Zoe which is claimed to be happening at Madison by people brave enough to rebuke elders who are held by some of your members as equivalent to celestial beings. This is confirmed by the country-wide gossip which pictures Madison as a laughing stock.
Bobby Mason wrote:
Are you advocating that there never be another new song introduced to worship assemblies? I may not be in the "hip" young crowd but I happen to love some of the new songs. I remember some time ago a lot of people complaining because the new songs were not written by members of the church. Now we have Keith Lancaster actually writing songs based on scripture and there is something wrong with that?
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
I don't control or bind people. I really don't even care what people do for that one hour of show and tell. However, I can tell you what the Bible says and it says absolutely nothing about "music" as worship. On the contrary, it identifies "music" with telling God: "We will not listen to your words." Jesus identified the Devil as a liar because "he spoke of his own." The primary musical passages in Rom 15; Col 3 and Eph 5 clearly identify a "speaking or preaching" process and not a "singing" process. The Christ honoring worship is using the Christ inspired material which He identified as Spirit to teach and admonish one another. The singing and melody was internal because external melody (confused with harmony) is founded on the principle of the twanging bow string sending a "singing" arrow to "make melody" in your heart to kill you:Don't let them fool you: there is no hint of spiritual worship of a Spirit God using "music" in the entire Bible. None. On the contrary, music is the sign or MARK which says "we will listen to Keith but we will not listen to God."
Bobby Mason wrote:
It seems you spend an awful lot of time trying to hurt people on your website. I looked around a bit and didn't see anything positive or anything that might lead someone to Christ.
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
No, you have been misinformed by the "just love" people who, among your elders, can take their obey me creed out of Mark 12 and ignore that Jesus also spoke of the "musical pattern" of the Old Testament. Love is telling people the truth: you truly have to hate people before you can lie about the Word of God to force them to obey you. I spend many years as a deacon and elder: the elders authority is derived from their having A holy spirit or mental disposition. They are restricted by direct command to "teach that which has been taught to you." People follow or obey when they listen to the teaching, follow it, follow the faith of the elder and the "outcome of their lives." No one gets command authority in a spiritual kingdom.Based on the sermons I review (often by request) too many preachers just make up their "sermonizing bible" as Keith makes up his "singing Bible." both dishonor Christ the Spirit and assume an inspiration superior to Christ and the apostles. My primary focus is to lead people out of Babylon: Jesus did say "come out of her."
Bobby Mason wrote:
Do you focus all your energy on trying to hurt people you do not agree with?
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
I really have no "dole position" and am not in the slightest interest in whether people agree with me or not. However, telling people that music is defined by the Ancient Babylonian Tablets, the Bible (king of Tyre, Babylon as Lucifer) as taught by Satan to take people's mind off the Word of Christ. If Keith's is more that Scripture it is false, if it is less than scripture it is false, if it is exactly Scripture then he should not get the glory.To many feel that if you don't entertain and make people feel good about themselves and their body you are hurting them. But unless the ancient documents, the Bible and all of church history is wrong then anyone who stands between the "audience" and God pretending (and claiming) to lead you into God's presence then you are engaged in the "idolatry of talent." If that hurts then you may be too tender to be a Christ warrior whose only offensive weapon is the sword of the Spirit and not a 'body worship session.'
Bobby Mason wrote:
Do you have any positive ministry? Do you have another website where you preach the gospel?
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
Yes. I regularly preach the gospel and have gone into more "nations" than all of the preachers in Nashville and have supplied more sought-after teaching resources than the entire history of Madison wrapped up into "worship" rather than synaoguing I tell people that the "core gospel" is a lie and that it is not gospel to claim that there are only seven facts about Jesus which you can rely on: all of the rest has been filtered through the Bible writers with their own agenda and by Greek phylosophy. If the core gospel preachers deny the bible and claim that John got the Logos concept from the Greeks then it is gospel to tell people the "good news" that God always manifested Himself in His Word.I correct the lies about baptism, the church ministry, authority of elders, forced giving as a law or increasingly legalistic tithing, 'singing' as a legalistic act of worship, the idea that if you want to meet God you must come to this building, that worship is in my spirit or mind (nous) which is the only holy place (naos) where God will be looking for me to give heed to His Word: that is worship in spirit and in truth. That is gospel. Never being able to have a microsecond of silence is not worship but defeats worship. I tell them that God is pure or Holy Spirit and He only takes note of what is in our mind or spirit and does not judge by what He hears or sees externally. I tell them that an organized, non-evangelistic "pastor system" is Babylonian captivity, that a pyramidaly ministry scheme is the curse imposed on Israel when the elders demanded a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations.
I tell them, no, David was not given as our worship leader but David was ordained by God as fitting to lead the nation into captivity and death which they had earned at Mount Sinai because of musical idolatry. I tell them that the burden Jesus died to relieve is "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual" which is bound on an organized clergy using the people like "pack animals." That Jesus died so that our burden is just the invoice which we carry while He carries the load. That He died to give us rest which means: cool it. Come with me to Piney creek, sit under the waterfall, and just admire what I have created for you free of charge.
Bobby Mason wrote:
I know you feel you are absolutely right and I respect your point of view, as I know many that share it, but some of the thingsI see on your website seem to be almost the ramblings of a psychotic mind. Can you really compare Hitler to a group that seems to be trying to get closer to God? How do you feel justified in sitting in judgment of other people? Do you really think God would approve?
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
No, I didn't compare your group to hitler. However, I post hitler to show how the "intellectuals" force the "emotional human material" to do their bidding. The principles were gleaned from Machiavelli used by one of the Nashvill group to teach why change comes slowly.I don't believe that I have passed judgment which implies the power to execute judgment. Teaching is not judging but everyone tries to stop truth speakers by asking: "How can you teach baptism? Don't you know that you are sentencing everyone to hell for not agreeing with you." Well, I am an engineer and I cannot be fooled by such logic.
I have outlined all of the Navigating the Winds of Change attacks I have seen in Nashville since my return to the area. If Madison is doing it then the shoe fits. If they are not then the shoe does not fit. However, if I can read the messages coming out of Nashville for the last decade I can believe that someone has momentarily pulled in their horns: that is called "prayerfull brinkmanship" in the Jubilee taught pattern. Pull back to traditional teaching until everyone goes to sleep and give it another try.
Bobby Mason wrote:
I do not say these things lightly, I feel called to say something to you because I do not see anything positive about what you are doing. I wonder if people like you are really members of the church or if you are part of some outside evil cult trying to pull it apart...regardless, I will be praying for you.
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
If I was a member of a cult I would push the idea of a dominant leadership, giving of means, refusing to question any thing going on, I would use music to dissociate the people and replace the Bible with my own "bible in song." I would put front and center a team to replace or control congregational singing, take away the song books to focus the attention on the performers. However, I would be an ultimately failing cult leader if I pushed effeminate performance, erotic (me focused) "praise songs" as the oldest superstition that the gods can be controled or assisted by "praise songs." This will lead to sterile children who, according to Hitler, will not be able to reproduce and they will be captured by some denomination Read he hitler and machiavelli stuff and you will see it when it is coming.I have been a member of the church for 60 years. And I know the "new style worship" and I know that Madison along with others promoted the Jubilee with an avowed agenda (according to a cofounder) to introduce music and a wider role for women. I have seen the fall of churches into the community church pattern and removing the name of Christ all over the country. Baptists are under the same musical attack.
It would be a good and honest exercise if you could be specific about something you believe I have taught which is wrong. And telling it like it is isn't judgmental as you will tell if you become a true Bible student.
Ken Sublett
Bobby Mason wrote:
I notice you did not answer my question about being at Madison any time in the recent past. I also detect from your comments that maybe you even had problems with Ira. I would like to understand just what page you are on, are you one that would not have kitchens, children's homes, domestic violence shelters, senior citizens homes, etc.? I just want to understand where you are coming from.I guess what I take exception to is someone who has not attended Madison at any point in the recent past saying they know what is happening there. There is a group that does want more "expressive" worship and anyone supporting them has been demonized to the point of criminal acts taking place.
There have been people, fueled by the rhetoric of people like you, that have gone so far as to vandalize Jimmy Sites' car, send death threats to Jimmy and to Keith and go all over the brotherhood saying that Jimmy is a "false teacher" and Keith only wants personal glory. You do not know these men so I do consider it "sitting in judgment" for you to say what they are and what their agenda is. Your website may not be meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator but it does. Do you advocate violence and criminal acts to restore the church you feel is right? Is any means necessary okay with you? You have fueled some of those types of people here and I believe if your words fuel the "psychotic" element, you will have to answer for them.
Just a comment for you to understand why I feel the way I do, when I first saw Keith Lancaster lead singing, I went up to him to just say that I thought the love he had for the Lord showed through his smile and the jubiliance he seemed to have when he was singing. I said he was an "awesome" songleader. Do you know what his reply was..."Only God is awesome, give him the glory." And he walked away. Keith Lancaster is by far one of the most humble servants I've had the pleasure to know I've seen him time and time again give God the glory in every situation and steer anyone trying to glorify his role into a glorification of God. Yes, he puts scripture into songs. But, Keith Lancaster does not and never has adovocated the use of anything but the human voice in music. I've asked him this point blank.
You may claim to know the agenda. I've heard people saying this one and that one were from Saddleback and this other far-out stuff. The Madison website claims Tom Haddon has been to Saddleback which is an outright lie. But, it is this kind of off the wall, lies are okay, anything goes approach to getting what people want out of the church that is so scary. I would pray, this is not what you advocate.
Kenneth Sublett wrote:
Bobby, when you detect that I had problems with Ira you are hallucinating or you need to tell me the page. I loved Ira and know for certain that he would not like to see what he built destroyed.If indeed as many has left as is claimed and if somewhere between 600 and 700 are brave enough to respond and vote and the overwhelming majority of that huge sample see things as the Concerned Members Do, then YOU have a problem and I didn't make it. No, I would never enter a mega-church. I have no problem with "50 programs" or however many you like but don't call it church. The church is not a 'family' but a community "assembly" or ekklesia or synagogue. It is an educational institution and its "staff infection" should be out doing their education on the mission field (100 miles from Nashville will do just fine). The church has not "standing army" of personnel, has not social gospel to spread or any of those things.
While you guys were doing your things you hungered and starved for the Word but could never find it (Amos 8). The reason you could not is that you have turned educational assembly into frequent religious festivals with wineskin (exhilarated) worship with music (Amos 5,6). Now, you are more addicted to favorite people than to the family or to Christ and His Word.
I am not "anti" anything but people on the dole who have figured out how to do the mega-church thing as a Seeker-Sucker so that they can get paid a huge salary without having to go out into the cold of the mission world. and then they "preach" or semonize the Word and destroy it so that adult males don't have the slightest interest in the word but will fight anyone who offends one of their '"awsome" ones.
The Madison problem is Madison's problem. I didn't make it. Didn't chase the substantial members away and get such a huge voting block totally opposed to the elders, their new "doctrines" and "essential practices." I know nothing much about Madison, care less about Madison because every mega-church is bait to be taken over by those who had rather capture than build. I don't know who went where, I don't care who went where, but don't pretend that YOU don't have a problem when there is such a hysteria taking place.
You can take exceptions all you wish, but Jesus sent literate and spiritual people out to teach the Word and if they could begin in Jerusalem then I suppose that I can begin in Nashville. I don't need to attend, be a member of the clan or have ever heard of Madison to have the charge to "test the spirits." All who live godly lives will be despised and rejected of men but your rejection in favor of the "team" will not stop me. Your, response to an honest effort to explain is just as psychologically violent as any prankster. Part of the cult signature is that you need my permission to speak your mind. That isa dangerous view to hold and is consistent with the Membership Covenant you may want to sign.
I don't know what is happening there except what I read on the internet. I didn't vandalize Jimmy Sites car, send death threats to Jimmy or Keith, don't know them, didn't advertise them but anyone who substitutes their own sentimental poems for the Inspired Word of God is not "humble harry." You are very strange to suggest that I have fueled anything but to write what the Bible says in opposition to Biblical illiteracy.
You need to be very careful about charging that I fueled any violencein Nashville. I take that as a false charge and you need to repent for such an outrageous lie. I knew nothing about Madison's recent problem until you had lost all of the people, If I read the Web correctly Jimmy Sites has not been there for a long time and I disagreed with one e-mailer who disagreed with Jimmy's stand on the Godhead. You will have to ask whoever said that whomever went whereever but I do know from the web that Saddleback has missionaries out and the Covenants sounds a bit like the Saddleback or Willowcreek where there are "inside members" and human material making up the masses. You cannot deny the connection with Jubilee and the Willow Creek pattern.
So, Bobby: "You shoot the church in the heart with an arrow (twanging, melody), the church is bleeding to death, and you blame the church or me a hundred miles away for your bad shot." That is the guilt clause, so go look in the mirrow or at your leadership for the shooter.
Ken